Robert
StrayCat
I respect your point of view,but that's it.
And I don't think writing an essay on how the GOtd crew should behave,will solve anything,will it...
However, if you choose not to enjoy the daily giveaways for those reasons, you have a problem that is pretty asinine too.
Btw,tell me,do you have 502 errors?
watcher13
Member
Glad we could be of amusement to you, Archangel. You've made it clear many in the past that that's apparently all many of us are good for. Maybe some day we'll all learn to live up to your standards, but it's an AWFULLY high pinnacle to climb.
You know what I find amusing? How some veterans of these forums continue to post telling others to be patient, see therapists, get new hobbies, generally mellow out, and so forth, and they actually expect that to stop all the posts that they don't like. Now THAT'S funny. Yes, we could close this thread. Actually - and I'm truly being serious here - it's probably about time. We have pretty much touched all the bases. And, after all, we can just pick it right back up next week in the new thread that someone will start if the problem isn't solved. And, eventually, we'll hear that GOTD can do whatever it wants, and we're foolishly wasting our time, and we're all a bunch of complainers, blah, blah, blah, all over again. And somebody will close that thread, and we'll open another, and on, and on....
And it's also funny how many of the same people think that GOTD couldn't possibly lose any business from problems that take 8 months to address.
And Robert, I don't think telling people that they shouldn't make suggestions on how GOTD should conduct it's business - especially since the comments page says "If you have technical problems or suggestions on our project, please leave us a note in our forums" - is going to be any better of a "solution" to anything. Or to put another way, is there any point in complaining about complainers until you drop? If people don't like the way any particular thread is going because they think it's pointless, why bother to post at all, or even read it? And, Archangel, if you post to mock threads that you see as amusing because they go on so long, don't you risk losing the source of your amusement? You wouldn't want that to happen!
In any case, Robert, are you really being fair? As I read it, RichardK is partially not enjoying the daily giveaways because he can't always get them. That doesn't sound all that asinine to me. And, after all, you didn't have trouble posting when you weren't able to read those reviews. I thought that was appropriate, but now you seem to be voting the other way. RichardK's just frustrated over repeated problems. Does that make him so deserving of dismissal from others here?
In any case, though I think the problems are being addressed, you - or any else here who says people should be patient and wait because you believe GOTD is working on it - are just guessing like the rest of us. In fact, one of the scenarios Bubby speculated on might actually be true - that the 502s may have gone away just because of an after Christmas lull and may pick up after traffic picks up again. Depending on how long it may take to attract new users to replace the ones who have given up in frustration. Another condition I find amusing.
Hi, Archangel and all the others who like to read a more or less funny novel or should I say drama?
You'll get some more reading. I reopened some deleted comments which I thought were far too off topic, as I didn't know at that time, what more should come. Look at page 2 (more or less). Sometimes I feel that I have to keep a person from exposing him/herself to ridicule. Sorry when I destroyed some of the "amusement".
graylox
Archangel
Member
Hey there graylox and I do agree its more drama. I think that what some of us has forgotten is that we are simply members here in this forum. I remember BuBBy saying once that this wasn't a democracy and that is absolutely correct. GOTD can do exactly what they want. Its there business not "Forum Members". I never saw a problem with a member coming here to let the staff know that there was a problem but to go on and on about it?
Lets face it, people come here for legal free stuff, nothing more and nothing less. If they don't get software one day for whatever reason you can rest assure they will be back tomorrow. Oh yeah they may go somewhere else to get what they may have missed here but I can guarantee you they'll be back tomorrow to see whats offered.
@watcher13 I have made no such statement or inclination. I've read and have agreed with some of your posts but not in this thread. But even you have to admit that you sometimes go way overboard on posting your views. You may not realize it but you do. As far as the "all many of us are good for", I have no idea where your coming from. But then again by reading the first paragraph of your "latest post" I can see you don't know where some of us are coming from either. I guess its a fair trade. LOL
Inas
Member
Good morning everyone, I hope all is well with each of you.....
Watcher13 - I support you 100% and respect your right to freely express your valid, legitimate concerns about GOTD - after all, GOTD openly invites and solicits such comments from its members - so please keep on standing up for what's right :)
And rest assured - there ARE GOTD members who appreciate & value what you say. After all, we should all support one another, regardless of our respective viewpoints.
I suggest you send a direct message about your concerns to the GOTD higher-ups:
1. via the contact form, or
2. via email to giveaway@giveawayoftheday.com
Hopefully, they will reply to your message. I agree with you that, at the very minimum, GOTD execs should publicly acknowledge chronic 502 glitches (and other glitches) when they occur - via a blog post would be fine (very simple solution.)
After all, any successful business operation is based on mutual respect between the CEOs, paid staff, and its customers.
Nobody questions a company's right to do whatever it darn well pleases - but a reputable/smart business should care about what its members think, and it should reply to its customers concerns. For, this is the only way a company (in today's global business economy) will survive, thrive, and succeed in the longterm.
By the way - a very happy/healty new year 2010 to all.
Cheers,
Inas
watcher13
Member
Thank you Inas, but, honestly, my intention was never to polarize the community, I think what little of that there is GOTD has already done as a byproduct of some of it's policies. Let me PM you about your suggestion because I think you've said it a lot better than I could.
I made sure to wait at least 24 hours to post as an experiment. I wanted to see the results of Graylox' action. If you read above, Graylox said she uncensored some posts from someone who she says had their posts deleted to protect that person from "ridicule". Well, as I suspected, that ridicule never materialized. So, there was probably no need to take any action one way or the other. Which is probably just as well. This way we can, hopefully, get on to bigger and better things.
Archangel, I'm confused as to your confusion. Apparently, if you read her comment following yours, Graylox knew what you meant. And, though I don't want to drag her in to this, Inas seems to have understood it, too. So I don't know what to tell you. I don't know what's worse, not being understood or being understood too well. But, just to be sure I wasn't misjudging you, I went back and looked at many of your previous posts in recent threads. There was a common motif: many of us discuss things a lot longer than you think we should which seems to occasionally amuse you, we should be more patient, and we should remember that GOTD can do whatever it wants.
First, as I've said, I don't understand why you spend time reading threads that you think have gone on too long and why you bother to post in them. Wouldn't you be happier just frequenting other threads? Second, let me try and put your mind at rest. I'm going to take the liberty of speaking for boydcomputing, GMMan, Cacophony, Gracey, Dragonlair, PayneLessDesigns, Campy, 4shadowm, Algernon, promytius, RichardK, HappyPerson, Frique, "the dragon", and the many others you've said this to in the past, when I say: we get it, GOTD can do whatever it wants. I believe we've always gotten it.
What I'm not sure you and some others get is how this keeps happening. This is the scenario: someone new to the project or one that hasn't had the need to follow it closely until now has a problem, question, or concern and they take GOTD at it's word when it says: "If you have technical problems or suggestions on our project, please leave us a note in our forums". So they join and do just that. And then someone like me posts to let them in on the reality that we really do not know how much GOTD pays attention to what we say here and that GOTD doesn't usually admit that they have a problem, that they even know they have a problem (though they likely do because they probably DO read the comments section), and whether or not they're working on any problems. You can certainly take that last on faith, but, we're all just guessing. If you find these two statements of, if not fact, then credible observations supported by evidence to be insulting to GOTD, then all I can say is it must be because the truth hurts. And then we start discussing how many of us believe that GOTD would be better off it it would be more open. That's how it keeps happening, like it or not.
The really funny thing about all this, Archangel, is that we wouldn't have ANYWHERE NEAR the same amount of threads which deal with similar subjects, they wouldn't have even close to the same amount of frustrated complaints, and they wouldn't go on even remotely as long as they do, if GOTD would just post, "we know there's a minor bug and we're diligently working on it." Then you wouldn't have all this stuff that occasionally gets under the skin, I hope you'll admit at least a little, of you and some of the others here. Maybe you should send a comment to GOTD on that subject. It would save you from having to see some of this, which, as I said, is not going to go away no matter how many times you post that GOTD can do whatever it wants. In any case, I'm not much interested in what you think I don't understand. Like I said, bigger and better things.
I think credit should go to Robert, here. He makes the most important point, that there seems to be some progress on the issue. Like I said before, the thread's probably played out. If it was me, I'd probably leave it open a couple days just to see if anything else develops, but Robert is probably right.
One more thing, Archangel, I could PM you about this, but since you made it public in another thread, I'm going to refute it publicly in this one. I tried to in another thread, but I don't think I'm getting through. I know you think I'm disgruntled and you posted in another thread, "I'm sorry to be so blunt but one of the mod's had said you'd had asked on many occasions to moderate. Its not up to them, its up to the PTB (?) and they'd said no. Please accept that and help like the others do." It might have been better had you checked on that more closely before you posted it, or PMed me, or had that mod PM me, since it SIMPLY NEVER HAPPENED. I don't remember ever contacting GOTD or anyone else about it, and, therefore, was never contacted saying I was rejected. I mentioned it in a thread once, as a passing frustrated comment, "A heck, if you can't find anybody else, I'll do it" type of thing (actually it was about the comments page, which seems to occasionally be short of moderators, and not here). Had I actually been asked, I would have turned it down. And I also mentioned that comment in a thread once as way of saying that if they saw the previous post, they didn't think it was worth considering for whatever reason. Something I wasn't particularly tore up about. As I said before about looking at some of your posts, and I'll explain this for new members, every thread you've ever posted in is linked under your membership. So, if anybody wants to go through my old posts, they're all there for everyone to see. If any one can find some credible evidence on how I've "asked on many occasions to moderate" I'll be happy to look at it. So I don't really know what I'm supposed to accept, but it's too bad you don't think that I manage very much to be helpful. That is, of course, your opinion. Whether I'm disgruntled or not - I honestly don't think I am - I hope folks will do me the courtesy of double checking their facts before they post anything like that in the future. That sort of thing would certainly make for less "drama", no matter who it was directed towards.
Archangel
Member
Lets try a more simpler scenario.
I open a Diner and cook only one type of meal each day. I don't charge any of the customers for the food they eat or drinks they drink (its completely free). I have a large drop box with paper for people to leave comments in.
Over a short period of time the line at the door starts getting pretty long, people are waiting to get in. One day while going thru all the comments that are saying things like "Thank You", "very much appreciated", ect. I read one that tells me that the line is too long at the front door and they don't like the wait to get in for free food. The suggestion is made that I need to put another door in so that he/she can get in faster. Well for whatever reason I don't put another door in. Maybe I don't have the money or maybe because of cooking, cleaning and everything else I just don't have the time. A week or two go by and in the comment box I get the same message again. What do I do? I throw it away with all the other "Thank You" comments because I simply can't or maybe won't do it because I'm satisfied with the flow because thats all I can afford. Another week or two go by and as I'm cooking and serving I notice several people talking and as they get closer they make sure that I can hear them. They are complaining about the long wait that they have to do to get in and get my free food. Going thru the comment box I find the same comment again about the door and he/she says that I have made a point to you before, now do something about it or your going to lose business. But this time he/she has talk to others and they are commenting too about needing another door plus make the bathrooms bigger.
Well its not long until I'm faced with a customer that ask's why I won't follow his suggestions and that he has a right as a customer to know why I won't fix things the way he has suggested. And then he points out that he came 7 days last week eating my Diners Free Food and on three of them the deep fryer broke down and he didn't get what he wanted and that I need to go buy a new one. Well being the cook, server, cleaner and comment reader I don't have the time or don't want to take the time to answer him because it is my business of serving free food (a different dish everyday!) and my finances, life and time are none of his business.
I'm sure that if you were the owner of that business you'd tell him go find another place that was more to his liking. In fact you'd probably be insulted that someone would eat your free food and then gripe about something that is just a fact of life.
I can't make it any simpler than that. I don't know if this is the way GOTD feels its just a story but wouldn't fit?
Can't wait for the reply!
Sincerely,
Archangel
watcher13
Member
Archangel (sigh) you sarcastically say you "can't wait for the reply", although when I've addressed your sarcastic shots you've feigned ignorance. When I look at your above post, maybe your not feigning all THAT much. Frankly, I'm passed the point of caring whether you await an answer or not.
You muse as to why some people post so much. Well, one of the reasons is that no matter how reasonable some people talk, and how reasonable and detailed their arguments, the same old drivel comes up over and over and over. Yes, I could discuss in detail your scenario. I will still try and address the basics of something that I've addressed many times here before and blown all the ridiculous arguments out of the water. I am sorry that I feel I have to address harshly one of the most respected (by myself, included) and intelligent members of this community. However, I won't commit myself to trying have a respectful, intelligent discussion on this any more than I would waste my time addressing why the world is flat, why the sun revolves around the earth, or why what goes up doesn't come down.
The problem with your argument is that it is AN UTTER FICTION THAT HAS - LITERALLY - NOTHING TO DO WITH GOTD'S BUSINESS MODEL. However, I've often suspected it does explain why a few people occasionally feel the need to try and stifle criticism here, either through criticism of their own, or through rare, but not unheard of, censorship. But more about that later.
I can't put this more simply, Archangel. What you're describing is a CHARITY, NOT A BUSINESS. You, yourself, say the business isn't making money - not just not charging, there's a HUGE difference. GOTD has other ways of making money, and - believe me - that's their primary goal. I hope you never open a business with such a business model with the idea of making your daily bread off of it.
I will also put the part of GOTD's business model that concerns those who come here for software as simply as it can be put. GOTD's intention is to ATTRACT AS MANY VISITORS TO THIS SITE AS POSSIBLE, WITHOUT EXCEPTION. No exception is made to select those who are fawningly grateful over those who point out flaws in the achievement of that business goal. It is pure numbers, and the only criteria is: THE BIGGER, THE BETTER. I am 100% certain that for GOTD to get revenue from the developers - whether through tracking, direct clicking on ads, or the indirect boost it will get if the developers are able to sell more of their product - it feels it must have as many visitors as possible, no exceptions. Also, since many developers prefer to use this site as a way to get feedback, there's no plausible reason to believe that a smart developer wouldn't want a lot of feedback - even if it's less than desirable - versus a tiny handful of fawning posters. And, doesn't it make sense that if developers saw the traffic from GOTD waning, they'd become concerned?
But if you find these very simple real world tenants hard to swallow, then I have two suggestions for you. The first is: please email GOTD your scenario versus mine and ask THEM which of the two resembles their business model. There's an outside chance they might even agree with yours, if they're deceitful enough to try and convince people here that everything they do is out of the goodness of their heart. (Stickr? LOL). However, I'm morally certain - and the VAST majority of GOTD users would agree - they would admit to my model, although I feel yours will certainly entertain them at the home office, if they need a good roll in the aisle. Actually, given we're talking about GOTD, the most likely scenario is that they wouldn't respond at all.
The second suggestion I have for you is: did it never occur to you that, if Robert is right and I believe he is - GOTD would never have bothered to put time, effort and maybe even money, into fixing the 502 problem if yours was their business model? The fact that they fixed it points to my business model.
What some of you here don't get is that when we criticize GOTD for driving people away, we're criticizing them for not maximizing THEIR INTENDED BUSINESS MODEL. For shooting themselves in the foot, as I like to say. (BTW, in your time in law enforcement, have you recommended that to your deputies?) We do this because we want the project to survive and thrive. You say for our own greedy ends. So be it. Are those of you who believe GOTD is a charity any less greedy? In fact, don't you refrain from criticizing because you even more greedily want free software, to the point where you're willing to pretend you never have any criticsms of GOTD? The real point in this however is that everybody here is greedy. GOTD is greedy and the developers are greedy. The only developers in the world who aren't greedy are the ones who give away nothing but freeware. THAT has a charitable aspect to it.
GOTD is a capitalist business enterprise, and that's how capitalism works. Adam Smith called it "enlightened self-interest". Note, he did not say, as Gordon Gekko did, greed. Smith would have pointed out that capitalism can not work properly based on greed, as our recent world financial troubles clearly demonstrate. What some here don't realize is that when we point out to GOTD actions that are likely to drive away potential customers, we are, as pompous as this may sound, enlightening them. And Adam Smith would have agreed that doing that is in THEIR best interest, as well as ours.
It occurs to me that, unfortunately, a few people here really believe that GOTD is Mother Theresa and we ingrates should never criticize Mother Theresa. That idea is just too ludicrous to waste any time even addressing. I will say, however, the ironically hilarious part of that joke is that GOTD could offer itself as a COMPLETELY free portal to help developers get exposure, absorbing all the costs as a true charity would. Yet, it doesn't. Nor would I expect it to. If you few folks are bound and determined to feel guilty about this, see your spiritual leader or a psychiatrist. I don't feel guilty about ANY of it. Everybody's getting theirs. We're getting ours, but GOTD is getting theirs, and the developers are getting theirs. Everybody wins, no need to feel guilty. Others apparently feel that if we criticize GOTD it will take it's ball and go home. It may despise every critic it has, but that WILL NOT happen. There is a description for the kind of business person who would do that: too stupid to live.
I hate having to keep demonstrating that the world is round. If I could, I would have these words posted at the top of these forums and the main comment page: GOTD IS A BUSINESS, AND NOT A CHARITY. (Nor have they ever claimed otherwise.) GOTD has never been a charity and I highly doubt will ever be a charity. No commercial interest on the internet gives away ANYTHING for free. All free content on the internet from such sources is only meant to either publicize the existence of something or to expose you to advertising. *Edit: there's still a price to pay, you just don't pay it directly.* I used to work in broadcasting. I know that business model very well.
If some of you sincerely believe that GOTD has ANY charitable component to it for which we should be falling down in worshipful gratitude, I can only feel sorry for you. That's your delusion.
Inas
Member
Hey there, ArchAngel (Archie for short) - LOL!
For your benefit (to answer your question, if I may) - GOTD is definitely a moneymaking enterprise. GOTD's ads & all its PR business partners are raking in good money for GOTD.
If GOTD were not making a very handsome profit, the company would have gone out of business a long time ago. So, GOTD has plenty of money to be able to maintain its site in a manner that is beneficial to its customers, and also beneficial for its (i.e., GOTD's) own financial sake and interests.
As I mentioned before, any company that wants to have a long-term, successful, thriving, viable business, will want to (and should) keep its ship running in 100% tip-top working order - otherwise, it will lose money and loads of customers in droves. It may not happen now, or next week or the week after - but it will eventually happen.
It is in GOTD's best interests (financially and from a goodwill customer standpoint) to address these technical glitches in a 100% transparent, forthright manner. Also, as customers, we should value ourselves and our self worth (to the utmost) to be able to provide constructive comments to GOTD, as a way of helping the company do better. No business or individual is perfect, but it is always an admirable goal to continually strive for perfection (with an emphasis on the word "strive.")
Providing useful and constructive feedback to GOTD is not "griping" as you put it. After all, as valuable/priceless/precious human beings, we have the right to speak up if we feel our opinions and ideas will benefit our fellow man (and woman), or in this case, a company (namely, GOTD.)
Anyway, that said, let us agree to disagree, as I (personally) have no intention of persuading anyone to agree with my point of view. I respect everyone's viewpoints, and I hope that others will respect my viewpoints as well. We don't need to agree about everything, and that's the beauty of the free world in which we live - we can have intelligent, lively, spirited, stimulating discussions and dialogues about many topics, in a mutually-respectful manner, and that is part of the fun and enjoyment of life.....
In summary - as I said before - we should all support one another - as collective members of the GOTD family and community - for, life is too short, and we ought to do everything we can to enjoy every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year.....etc. - you get my drift.
Peace & Best Wishes always to everyone,
A very happy, Happy Person (aka Inas)
watcher13
Member
As usual, well said, Inas, and very diplomatic, unlike mine. However, I don't promise to be diplomatic all the time, because I'm fed up with the same old same old. One thing I will not do is make posts insinuating that the posts of others are just blowing everything out of proportion to a laughable degree. I have too much respect for others here to do that. If I believe that, I'll just honestly say it. No sniper like digs, looking down my nose at anyone. And if people don't agree, I'll just leave them alone to hash it out among themselves and go to another thread.
Anyway, I sincerely thank you for the intelligent and diplomatic response on this issue. It is perhaps to my shame, but we need more posts like yours than some of the others here, mine most certainly included.
Inas
Member
Thanks much, Paul, for your steadfast support and encouragement. I am most grateful for your genuine appreciation of my posts..and as I mentioned before, I also appreciate and value your opinions and comments, and very much understand that your sincerity and good-hearted motives are the basis for your passionate & well-intentioned posts.
Best,
Inas
On that note, I'm closing this topic. What began as a topic with suggestions for users who were experiencing 502 errors, unable to download has now wandered away from helping other users to something far less helpful.
I think the personal views of the participants thus far have been quite clearly put forward and as no new practical constructive suggestions have been made for users, it is best not to drag this out any longer.
Users who wish to educate the GOTD team on how to run a successful website, should probably do so directly via the contact form. I'm know they want to hear your ideas (and they really do care more than the majority of readers of this forum).
Mod note: Also, if you are unaware of where the contact form is, it can be found here.
http://blog.giveawayoftheday.com/contact-form/
This topic has been closed to new replies.
