boo
Member
One question!
Why do you censor comments for the giveaways? Shouldn't you be democratically ethical and allow freedom of speech? This is a great site and all, but I think it can be far greater if you do not censor comments and allow freedom of speech among those who use the site.
It is true that criticism comes with these freedoms, but criticism is essential for your site. You learn from your mistakes, not hide from them!
Thanks!
Can you give an example of the "censorship" in question (note that the forum moderators have no access to any approval or otherwise of giveaway comments). We are "normal users" of the giveaways site like yourself.
Was this your comment that you feel was "censored"?
BTW - I "censored" your double-post by deleting the duplicate. Hope that's ok. :)
boo
Member
Thanks for the quick reply, Bubby!
Anyway, no need for you to get angry but I recently had some problems with your software and I was constantly looking at the product pages in pursuit of solutions.
To my surprise, certain comments would disappear later. (Definitely censored off.)
Anyway, when you make a comment, it would be "awaiting for moderation"! That's not cool, they should allow freedom of speech.
Firstly - I'm not angry - don't worry (I'm a nice moderator).
Second - It's not my software. It's not GOTD's software. The software is provided by other software companies who have agreed to let people install (over a 24hour period) a full version of their software.
We don't have all the answers when stuff breaks or doesn't work (even though it seems to work for everyone else). Sometimes we are lucky and the company offering the software jumps in and lends a hand with some "inside knowledge" to get things working for our users.
We help out where we can. If you want solutions or have questions - this is generally a much better place to ask - because you know where to check when someone answers your question.
Comments may disappear because sometimes - when people read through the comments they may find comments that are:
Generally the comments that have been "censored" are probably done for the above reasons. There is a current discussion elsewhere in these forums that you might like to read. Several people are talking about how they feel the comment section could be "more useful" ranging from the views that it should be just a complete "free for all" to the other extent of anything that isn't a "comment or review" of the current days giveaway should not appear.
That "comments section" thread is HERE
boo
Member
Sorry, but why did you censor my previous message?
This was the message that was censored:
Some people I know who also use this site have many problems with its software. Therefore, they make many criticizing complaints. These complains aren't abusive, Illegal, or contain email addresses. However, all they do is contain criticism.
Then when they are posted, they are promptly deleted after a short time! One minute the complaints and criticism are there, the next minute, its gone! If you look at the comments, sometimes you see that people have replied to the comment BEFORE it has been censored. And the reply is there, but the comment they were replying to was censored off!
I myself have seen this many times and this leaves me in a state of wonder at why our freedom of speech is not respected or upheld.
Thanks
I haven't censored any of your messages in these forums.
As I said often it's not what you say, but how you say it.
Secondly read through the comments there are plenty of comments that are critical of the software. It's fine that some people don't like various programs. And they say this every day. These comments are still there.
Also if you don't like something - it is more helpful to explain "why" you don't like it, and if possible how it could be improved. Take a close look at comments that "disappear" and in your "state of wonder" ask how "contructive" their criticism really was.
There are some people who like to help others, and give something back. There are others who only want to take and criticise.
Ultimately though, when on this website - or almost any website on the internet your "freedom of speech" still has some limits, and only ever extend as far as the law or the owners of the website permit.
If you feel you have a legitimate complaint (or maybe "constructive criticism" or *gasp* a "thank you") - contact the GOTD team privately via the "contact form"
George
Member
boo is right, I had a message that complained about the software not being able to properly work at all! I complained and criticized GAOTD a lot (sorry). and then it was censored off after while!
this is what I don't like. although the software sometimes actually works, some people aren't allowed to criticize GAOTD!
bubby, I dont like how you are so "sarcastic"! you can be more "helpful" by maybe *gasp* actually helping. lol.
Anyway, "only ever extend as far as the law or the owners of the website permit."
I must agree with you on this one.
boo, this isn't your website so if they don't want you to criticize them, then don't. they will just delete it! maybe you can make your own website criticizing GAOTD. then they might find it harder to delete it.
I really agree that you should not censor comments that are full of criticism. Doing that will just annoy many people.
also, when someone votes for a thumbs up, you aren't forced to say why. when someone votes for thumbs down, they are forced to say why! That just implies that GAOTD only wants to hear people praising them, not hear people criticizing them. not much freedom of speech eh?
Have you actually read the comments over the last few days?
If what you are saying was true - there would be a lot fewer comments. No?
If you were "censored off after a while" - maybe the antispam software saw your multiple posts as pointless spam and deleted them. Who knows? Were all of your comments about the giveaway software, or were you trying to help other people with problems.
As it says before you post a comment - if you have comments about the GOTD project - the comments should go into the forums.
At any rate nobody in these forums has the ability to censor any of those comments. Sorry can't help there.
And I was being *gasp* sarcastic. Well I suppose that's better than being told that I am "rude".
If you think I should actually try helping someone... stick around - I might just give that idea a try. Any tips? (By the way, I am a moderator - not tech support. If I have helped anyone in the past it was completely unintentional).
Finally why criticise GOTD? What wrong have they done to you? Offered some software for free that you didn't like? Do what I do. If I don't like it - I don't download it. I don't abuse GOTD for it, I don't complain. I just think "oh well, tomorrow is another day".
LadyGodiva
Member
It is true there's a "tell us why" question when you choose thumbs down and none when you choose thumbs up. But you are not forced to do anything, at least not at this point. If you don't wish to give a reason you may cancel your vote without sending any message. Yes, that does mean your thumbs down won't count but it still doesn't consititute force. Nobody's forcing anybody to vote.
The reason for the question is developers who allow their programs to be distributed on this site for free want to know WHY people don't like their program. That way they can look at the reasons given and improve future versions of their program.
If someone likes the program enough to give it a thumbs up then the developer must assume little or nothing is amiss, so perhaps they can just concentrate on adding new features in any future versions. Therefore, no reason is really needed for a thumbs up. But if you don't like their program of course they want to know why! After all, they (the developers) would like to continue making a living by creating software. Remember, the developers are normally trying to sell the programs offered here. If you think their product can't sell then tell them your reasons.
That's why when that message box comes up asking for a reason, you don't want to just put something like "it sucks!", instead tell the developer WHY you think it sucks. They really want to know why, if you don't give any real reasons they cannot improve their programs.
You also don't want to put something like "No more screensavers!!" in the thumbs down message box. That doesn't help screensaver developers improve their products. Those particular developers are still going to make and sell screensavers whether or not you think GAOTD should offer any. They (the developers) don't care what you think of GAOTD, they want to know what you think of their program.
Some people get confused and think the ratings system is to rate GAOTD or GAOTD's choice of programs. That's why you see so many thumbs down ratings when there's a screensaver. It's also why you may see a lot of thumbs up on programs that aren't so great, because other people feel obligated to rate everything thumbs up just because they got it free for that day.
The ratings system isn't meant to rate GAOTD either way though. The thumbs up/down rating is meant for visitors to rate the program of the day, not to rate GAOTD or the fact that the program is free for one day.
@George. BuBBy has been very helpful to many on these forums; helping people register programs, checking out malware reports (turned out to be false positives), helping people get programs to run on their particular operating system, suggesting alternate freeware programs, ... all these things both before and since volunteering to moderate the forums.
Forum moderators don't moderate comments sections, that is done by site administrators.
@BuBBY. Who said anything should be a "complete 'free for all'"? Over there was a debate about site enhancements that would only seem to benefit one part of a three way equation, i.e. certain site visitors.
@LadyGodiva - Who said anything should be a "complete 'free for all'"?
Yeah, you're right - nobody was advocating that - I was just trying to indicate that the thread was open to differing opinions and views - and I was trying to think of example viewpoints at opposite ends of "the spectrum" (eg - everything from A to Z).
Anyway... we have a big electrical storm here at the moment. I'm turning off my pc till it's over & I'll just sit by myself in the dark and practice my sarcasm. :P
George
Member
OK, I'm sorry, I won't complain about censorship anymore! There's nothing we can do anyway!
Here is a question from another "end of the spectrum". But how does GOTD profit from this operation. They've added more languages and features, and the have software for download. But I am quite curious how they are still thriving quite well! If there are ads, with the amount of visitors here, they would be making bucketfuls of money! Unfortunately, I don't see any ads! And, according to the site, they have to pay the publishers money for every giveaway!
So, what's up huh? Maybe they pay the publishers $0.00000000000000000001 for each giveaway. Or maybe the publishers pay them to have their software given away (No wonder these programs aren't good, they've been developed by mentally challenged people who want to give their products away! lol JK). Maybe not. Have you ever downloaded Bonzi Buddy? Yeah it was free but... (Well, let's just say they aren't famous for having completely clean products). I'm not saying or implying anything (I don't know anything about how GOTD profits, that's why I am asking!), but I am very curious how you guys earn money!
PS If you like the idea of having ads, it would be nice if you could give me a 1% commission (for making the wonderful suggestion). Anyway, can someone working for GOTD help answer my curious question of how you guys profit?
George
Member
Thanks for that link, although after reading it it really doesn't answer my question!
You see, all it says is that the software developers have a lot to gain and that GOTD pays them!
Unfortunately it doesn't tell anyone how GOTD profits from this. Even if it is a non profit company, they still need to break even! I am mostly certain there are huge costs involved in running this company (salary, web hosting, developer payments, etc.). But how do you guys actually earn money? No ads, no malware (HOPEFULLY, though people have been complaining about viruses). So how do you profit? I don't think it's fun running a company that loses money!
If it's not rude about being naturally curious, and if you have nothing secret to hide, maybe you can elaborate more about this?
Personally, I can't see how anyone working on the site is getting fabulously rich out of GOTD. I provide my time for free. I'm not sure it really matters - perhaps it isn't the point.
It is possible that GOTD is a side project - and people are getting paid working on other things, and the costs of running GOTD is being subsidised from other projects. I don't know and I don't care.
You are probably the fifth person to ask how they make money and it has never been answered. If you are worried about the site going broke and having to shut down - send me money and I will pass (some of) it on.
One thing I am sure of - GOTD isn't making money by taking advantage of their users by some sneaky invisible plan. Just what you see is what there is - a website letting people install new licensed software each and every day. Can't complain about that (well most people don't complain...)
Anonymous
Unregistered
As chief moderator my salary is basic 58,000 US dollars and bonus if all targets are met varies from 10,000 to 100,000 US dollars.
I am not allowed to mention level 3 and what the hard working guys and gals do there.
I also have a share policy 1 16th of the flotation, it floated at 9 cents and is now reaching 1 US dollar and 13 US cents.
Other moderators get a bagel and chicory coffee as their pay, till I decide they are fit for purpose.
B.T.W. I was reading an article on the web, look what I found!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v480/LeeSmithG/p0wn3d.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v480/LeeSmithG/mouse.gif
Just for you George, you're the one walking down the garden path
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v480/LeeSmithG/kidandkat.gif?t=1176814749
Wolven
Member
Lee,
I checked the comedy section of Actor's Guild. You are underpaid. Call the union.
BuBBy,
You are not entitled to the entire bagel,..only the hole in the middle.
> Really, is there some form of conspiracy here? Other than paranoia, why are people so concerned with how GOTD stay afloat? It is not a publicly listed company (far as I know),..we are not shareholders,..why worry? I will just download today's offerings, check for malware, and be grateful the programs are free. I don't need to invest, yet I yield profit for the day. It works for me.
> Censorship,..that's a different matter. I shake my head in disbelief at times. I still don't think it is being handled, or has been addressed, correctly, to this point on the forum.
However, "Rome wasn't built in a day", as they say.
--------------------------------------------------
> Suggestion:
Why not have a closed for comment (moderator access only) 'GRIEF & BEEF' thread? When a post is '[snipped]', an edit number is placed in the post, eg; '[snipped 1048]'. The edited piece is then moved to the 'GRIEF & BEEF' thread under heading 'ITEM 1048'.
Those interested, could then view it and make up their own minds.
Items stay in the G&B for one month, and are then deleted (keeping the thread to a minimum size and allowing for easy navigation).
This would work, providing nothing is to hide, for snipped comments relating to GOTD, Software, Moderators, Developers, etc.
Of course, any profanity, discriminatory, and likewise comments should be completely discarded from the forum, with eg; '[removed]' placed in the original post.
,,,Just a thought.
sounds like a lot of extra work.
I find that I don't need to moderate various posts. To date most of the issues have revolved around single users. Their first post (normally within 1 hour of joining the forums) is abusive, rude, arrogant or offensive. The over perhaps the next hour or so they argue about everything, whinge about being moderated, make several double and triple posts. The overstay their welcome really fast. A few keypresses later from an admin or moderator - and they are history.
If a post needed moderation, and I was sure that I hadn't just misread it - I am more likely to just delete the whole thing. If it's somebody who has a history of contributing in the forums - I would probably [snip] it and send them a PM.
I really think that what it comes down to - users just have to trust the moderators to use their own common sense and moderate as they believe fair and in a manner that reasonable forum users would expect.
As far as the giveaway comments, more of those whiney, rude, disrespectful and ungrateful comments actually should be moderated. I think sometimes people think that because you cannot physically see a person - there is no longer any place for a little bit of manners. (/shakes walking stick: "Back in my day...")
DawnF
Member
I myself have seen this many times and this leaves me in a state of wonder at why our freedom of speech is not respected or upheld.
Regarding free speech: The oourts have consistently upheld that free speech can be limited (you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theatre, for example). In this case, the owner of a web site, considering it is his/her property has the right to determine the level of "freedoms" associated with said site. One is not forced to be a member of a particular online community and has the option to leave if he does not like the rules.
By staying in the community, one is implicitly agreeing to abide by the rules of that community and submitting themselves to the authority of that community.
LadyGodiva
Member
The "how do they make money" question has come up before. They don't answer it but they are not a publicly traded company with shareholders so they are not required to answer it. A few have even proposed some pretty wild conspiracy theories just because they they can't figure it out. Thankfully this thread hasn't dissolved into that area yet, but before spinning tales the conspiracy-minded might want to read up on Occam's Razor. Basically that says the simple answer is usually the correct one. How they make money is really not hard to figure out with just a little reading of this site's links and some thought.
The server they use, Word Press, is free. The bulletin board software they use, BB Press, is connected to Word Press and is free and open source. So subtract those expenses right there. The download server they use, filekicker, is very inexpensive.
There's two kinds of ads. Every day developers post ads for additional software that is not being offered for free. Those developer's ads are carried over to the first screen on some installations, you can shut off the screen but if you don't they're there. Next, there's Google sponsored ads on different places on the site but they are very small so you have to look for them. (Google ads aren't sinister, they are all over on safe sites. If blocked with an ad blocker all site functions still work. You can even block the script for Google ads and all site functions still work.)
So far there's not that many ads on this site but it hasn't been around very long, there probably will be more in the future. In the meantime, advertisers pay well to place ads on sites that have large numbers of users and many daily hits. Offering a new program and a new game every day that users would normally have to buy is a big draw. It guarantees most will stop by at least once every day and tell others to do the same.
This site hasn't even existed for one year. It operates out the US and even the big bad IRS says new businesses don't have to show any profit for the first three years yet can continue to deduct expenses. If still no profit after three years then further business expense deductions are disallowed and the business must redeclare itself as a hobby. Businesses can file for extensions on the three year limit if they show cause.
It's entirely possible they are not making any profit or not much of a profit at present but are banking on the future. That's not unusual, it's what entrepreneurs do. As a private (as opposed to public) business they can answer questions if they choose but are not required to supply their balance sheet to the general public. But again, it's not hard to figure out and they can deduct related expenses for at least the next three years, such as their purchase costs for software licenses and that small amount they pay to filekicker each month.
@DawnF. Thanks for reminding everyone of the limits on 'freedom of speech'. So many don't understand 'free speech' applies to the legitimate press and allows for redress of government for grievances. But this site is hardly the Fourth Estate and 'free speech' does not apply to private businesses.
As you pointed out, certain limits on 'free speech' are consistently upheld in court. You can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre, you can't commit libel, you can't call your boss a [insert any expletive] and expect to keep your job, you can't verbally threaten anyone, you can't make terroristic threats, you can't harass anyone, etc. etc.
Exactly, and so far nobody has provided a verbatim example of this "oppressive" moderation.
Yet in discussions like this it is normally those in a position of responsibility or authority who is portrayed as the "bad guy" and the guy yelling abuse or complaining is the poor guy who deserves to be heard.
Personally I would rather give the voice to somebody who is trying to help others or contribute in some fashion. The guy standing on his soapbox screaming at GOTD for wasting his time offering free software he has no need for - the person who makes it quite clear that they are only here for what they can take, and refuses to let other do their best to give or help - is better off somewhere else.
Some people unfortunately see it as their duty to the world to point out what a lousy job everyone else is doing, yet they have nothing better to offer than criticism.
LadyGodiva
Member
Bubby wrote:
The guy standing on his soapbox screaming at GOTD for wasting his time offering free software he has no need for -...
I always wonder about those kinds of comments and forum posts, especially when they happen repeatedly from the same users. The first thought is always, "Well OK, but then why do you keep coming back?"
George
Member
I can make an example of harsh moderation!
I made a post that says
"So are there any Trojans or viruses in this one?"
It didn't get through moderation!
What did I say wrong?
PS, out of curiosity, how many people work for GOTD? is it a small group or a large number of staff?
Anonymous
Unregistered
George, if you wish to ask those questions goto the front page and email via a contact form or pm 'key master'.
If you say 'are there trojans and viruses in this one' then it's offensive, because you are causing a situation.
I have downloaded and installed at least 100 titles (games and apps) and found no spyware or trojans etc in any file.
If you believe you have spyware or a virus in your download then post it in the sticky's.
George
Member
Haha I like your pictures, but I find the last one offensive where you said I am the one walking! I mean, what do you have against me?
Oh and was it you censored my topic called Problem! ?
And I am not saying there are viruses in your Giveaways, I am not one to determine them? But recently, people have been complaining about lots of malware and I want to be on the safe side! So I am just asking whether there are any! If they can prove to me there is a virus, then I am definitely not downloading it!
But Lee, are the comments that say there is a virus censored off too? Then I cannot know whether to download it (or not). If anyone finds a virus, I will never know.
But you are right, Spybot SD hasn't detected any viruses yet. I just want to make sure that other people using better antiviruses confirm that there are none!
Sorry, Lee I am not trying to offend anyone. If you think I have offended you in any way (in the posts you deleted or in anything I said) then I am sorry, I didn't mean to. You should put forth what I said wrong so we can reach an agreement. When you said I am the one walking down the path in the picture, I was offended. Someone I don't know hates me for no apparent reason. But it's ok I'll forgive that one as a joke!
@George said 1 Day Ago
OK, I'm sorry, I won't complain about censorship anymore! There's nothing we can do anyway!
Then
I can make an example of harsh moderation!
I made a post that says
"So are there any Trojans or viruses in this one?"It didn't get through moderation!
What did I say wrong?
George, the question - "So are there any Trojans or viruses in this one?" Really does sound a comment from a sarcastic troll.
Is the commenter implying that past giveaways have had trojans and viruses? The implication and tone perhaps becomes clearer if they asked "So are there any Trojans or viruses in this one, also?"
If they used some common sense - I am sure they could work it out - if the files were infected with viruses and anyone knew about it - do you think somebody would've mentioned it? Do you think GOTD would leave the files online for download if they knew that?
If I was moderating the forums and saw a comment like that I would just assume they were being a sarcastic smarta** and I would at least delete the comment.
I really don't know what your point is here - obviously you have some sort of problem with moderation and you have been pulled up for it - and now all you want to do is whinge and complain and imply that there is some sort of conspiracy out to pick on you. Get over it will you. Everyone else has.
If people make reasonable comments, they will probably be displayed. It seems a lot of people haven't realised you can disagree or be critical of something without accusations or blame. As if GOTD staff are just going to let people make false accusations and imply some wrongdoing or evil scheme, attack reputations or spread false rumors in their comments section through some misguided assumption that posters have some "freedom of speech".
With any "right" or "freedom" comes "responsibility" and respecting the rights of others. It is a two way street - and on this street, the traffic cops are the website administrators and moderators - and the scrutiny of their decisions do not belong in public forums. But there will always be someone who hopes that if they throw enough stones and bend enough ears they might start some sort of website mutiny.
Any future concerns about moderation should be handled privately (via PM) with the individuals involved, or use the "contact form" or PM an admin.
George
Member
Hey! I only said that when you replied with "Exactly, and so far nobody has provided a verbatim example of this "oppressive" moderation"
As far as I know
GOTD DOES NOT CONTAIN VIRUSES
Happy now?
I AM NOT A SARCASTIC TROLL! Well, I am sarcastic sometimes, but i am not a troll! I don't want to start a "website mutiny" (lol, website mutiny)
"So are there any Trojans or viruses in this one?" If you read this, I am asking people if there are trojans in GOTD! When you said I am being sarcastic, that would mean I am insulting those who claim there are. (by saying: What, so you think there are trojans here also?)
But really, I don't know the truth. As far as my knowledge, GOTD is Clean!
I also, don't have much problem with your moderation, it is your website not mine OK? I only said that when you asked for examples!
I respect your rights and I apologize if I have offended you in anyway! (I don't want two enemies in an online war against me!) :(
Anonymous
Unregistered
http://www.tomfoolery.nl/images/BanHim.jpg
All I can say.
It takes a lot more than that to offend me, George.
I wasn't aware this was a comment that you had made, but just a hypothetical example - note I refer to the poster as "they" and not "you".
At the end of the day, the decision as to what comments appear on the website are entirely up to the administrators. Nobody is given any sort of assurance or guarantee that any comment they make will appear on the website.
Just as when you write a "letter to the editor" for you city newspaper - there is no certainty that your letter will be published, or published unedited. You are being given the opportunity to submit a comment about the giveaway software. GOTD never makes any promises that your comment will be published. The decision as to whether a comment is published is entirely up to the moderators.
This applies to the forums also.
This topic has been closed to new replies.
