GOTD's attempt at moderating the comment section isn't working - example today.

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GOTD's attempt at moderating the comment section isn't working - example today.

(24 posts) (7 voices)

Started 15 years ago by watcher13
Latest reply from wizzard_of_ozz2004

watcher13
Member

I just posted a nasty gram in the GOTD comment section, coupled with a detailed post on today's software. It may not pass moderation, that's okay. I'm not posting part of it here because I'm afraid it won't pass moderation. I'm doing it because I want to make the point here that I'm getting fed up with GOTD's half measures in doing things.

There was a religious post in the comments section. "The end is near" and then pushing a well known radio program and ministry. I'm not posting because I'm for it or against it. The issue is, the post was PURE SPAM. And below is what I posted about this. I don't think it's anything ban worthy, but, it is close to flaming, so it might not last here long:

"WHY IS POST 55 FROM MANKIND REPRESENTATIVE HERE? What the BLEEP are you admin/moderators doing, anyway? I realize that most of you are overworked volunteers. However, isn’t it time GOTD starts putting emphasis on this page? Isn’t it time GOTD starts either using staff, or getting more volunteers to help out, or BOTH? Why do we users have to watch what we write when GOTD doesn’t seem to give a BLEEP about this page?"

I reproduce that simply to give you an idea how little respect I'm starting to have for the way GOTD manages things. The most sympathetic thing I can say is maybe they've just bit off more than they can chew, but I'm not convinced I can give them that much credit. Yes, I know this thread, if allowed to continue, will be filled with "it's free" and excuses from moderators about how they're overworked, and how some bleary eyed moderator just missed it. Which I agree with, by the way. I have nothing bad to say about any of the moderators. We all make mistakes. But, if you look at that LONG post, there's NOTHING in it about computing or today's software. I wish it said, as Bubby jokes, banana, banana, banana. But it doesn't. Again, it's PURE SPAM. To put it simply, it didn't slip past moderation. IT WASN'T MODERATED AT ALL. IT WASN'T READ. IT WAS JUST POSTED. NO HUMAN MODERATION OCCURRED AT ALL. Or maybe, though unlikely, the moderator passed it because he/she endorses the same views, though I doubt that. Can I post my politcal views over there everyday? Pretty please?

My point is stuff like this just shouldn't happen. That it happened isn't that important. What it illustrates to me is GOTD's endless attempts to do things half way. To do things on a shoe string. And this from a project that just inaugurated a Romanian webpage, which I'm sure doesn't have an Admin, as practically none of the foreign pages do. And that makes it increasingly hard for me to defend this project to newbies. And it's not like we don't deal frequently with, "Why didn't my post pass moderation?" questions. At the same time, most or all of the foreign pages aren't moderated at all. But why do we moderate the English page? Because it would look bad for the project to the developers. But GOTD doesn't care enough about that to make sure it's actually moderated well. Many days, any post after the first 12 hours has to practically wait another 12 hours before anyone sees it. And no, I'm not ungrateful because I'm getting stuff for free. Actually, I hardly ever download anymore, anyway.

I'm sure some will tell me I should just go away, and maybe that's the solution. In any case, as extreme as my opinion may seem, I'm not sure what anyone could say that would change it. A religious reference on what I'm starting to think about GOTD - you can tell a tree by it's fruit.

Posted 15 years ago #
Inas
Member

I agree with you 100%, Watcher 13.

I was completely surprised, shocked, in disbelief, etc., that GOTD folks allowed the religious comment to be posted...and my software-related comment was not posted until eight hours later....even though other comments (written after mine) were posted first. Yes, I agree, having very few GOTD volunteers is absolutely no excuse for the GOTD moderators to implement less than A-One quality measures.

Top-notch, consistent quality-control and high standards should always be a first priority. Let's cross our fingers & hope this problem will be resolved soon.

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

Well, I appreciate that, Happy, but that's not exactly what I'm saying. To be fair, sometimes a post is late because a moderator is nice enough to rescue it from the spam filter. Sometimes the spam filter kills a good post.

What I'm saying is, if GOTD's serious about moderating that page, then it SHOULDN'T be short of moderators. They should step up make sure there are plenty of moderators. I don't really care if they're staff or volunteers or both. 4 moderators for 24 hours/7 days, not to mention the game page on the weekends? WHAT A JOKE! And I see no evidence that they've had any success in coming up with any consistent moderation policies. They all pretty much have their own style. And I don't think that's working!

And, though I'm not saying the foreign pages are that important that it would be necessary, you could moderate them by using an online translator. As I said awhile ago about the problems with email notification, Why start something you can't follow through on? How does that help your image? And, I notice the email notification problems have disappeared, even though we were told they couldn't do anything about it.

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

I don't know whether it was the comment I made, this thread, or the fact that I PMd "admin", the "key master", whoever the heck that is (another GOTD "state secret") with a link to this thread, but the offending post has been removed.

Now they just have to wipe the egg off their faces.

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

Man, they killed - disentegrated - one of the other threads, just because I politely but curtly disagreed with someone who took offense at something I said, even though I apologized ahead of time to avoid offending that person. They're all excited about no one arguing here, in a mostly open forum, but you can practically flame each other in the comments section. Sheesh! Priorities backward much? Why don't you moderators come out of the shadows to do your dirty work? How about just closing the thread with an explanation?

Posted 15 years ago #
Whiterabbit-uk
Games Guru

I PMed one of the owners about getting another moderator for the games section as I'm the only one moderating them at the moment.. I try to visit them regularily, but recently I've been sleeping a lot throughout the day so have been leaving long gaps between moderations. I don't like doing this, but unfortunately when I need to sleep well.... need I say more.

Someone PM'ed me to ask if I'd relay their keeness at helping out and I wa s told that they would be considering the offer from this community member. However they are concerned at giving too may community members access because doing so also gives the moderator access to the whole of the site and they are worried that changes may be made that shouldn't be.

I only moderate the games section and have no access to the applications section so cannot help out. The applications section seems to be suffering the same problem that the games section did several months ago, in that comments were only being moderated a few times each day over the weekend period, especially the Sunday comments. I realize this isn't answering your concerns over innappropriate posts, but could be a contributing factor towards the reason they are getting through. The applications section gets far more comments than the game section so I can only imagine the time it must take for whoever is moderating them.

Regards

WR

p.s.

I avoid posting in the applications comments section because of the flaming that goes on. It's been an ongoing problem almost from the inception of this project. The comments section would be a much more valuable resource if only comments directed at the software were allowed but the arguing about unrelated things and especially the flaming of others has always been allowed for some inexplicaple reason.

I rarely bother reading the comments section anymore unless I'm looking for an alternative freeware option to the particular giveaway I may have missed or lost. It seems to me that some community members derive great pleasure in winding others up. The first time I wrote a comment about a software that was being given away, someone replied in a very rude way, so I took the bait and gave them a piece of my mind. That was a big mistake as then there was a whole raft of others posting rude remarks. I vowed then not to bother with the comments section as I fount the whole experience upsetting.

Posted 15 years ago #
wizzard_of_ozz2004
Games Master

To be fair, for those that don't know, the people who moderate the main site are not the same moderators for the forums. As I was reading your posts watcher, it was sort of offending me because it seemed as though you were implying that it was our moderators here in the forums who allowed the spam through. As far as I know, rabbit was the only (up until recently when he was upgraded to admin) moderator in the forums who moderates the two main sites. He only does the games site though. I understand your frustration and I agree with you, but please be a little more specific for those "newbs" that are joining our forums. The forums are a much cleaner place than the main site, and I for one, am proud of that.

Posted 15 years ago #
Inas
Member

Hello White Rabbit and Wizard of Oz,

Just want to share this Old/Archived GOTD Forum from about two years ago, in which someone suggests solutions for the software forum comments issue. It seems as if the crude/rude comments began from GOTD's inception, and that this problem should have been resolved by now, if the GOTD owner and main-site moderators are serious about maintaining a first-class, first-rate, classy, civil site. Maybe you can pass this along to them for their consideration, if you are willing to do so (it's up to you of course).

Best regards,
Happy Person

Posted 15 years ago #
GMMan, Hexadecimal Blacksmith
Blocked

HappyPerson: Your link's broken. Revised: Old/Archived GOTD Forum

Posted 15 years ago #
Inas
Member

Let me try again with the archived GOTD forum I tried to list here a few moments ago.

Here's the site: http://www.giveawayoftheday.com/forums/topic/313

I hope it works this time.......if it doesn't, then at least I tried.

Cheers,
Happy Person

Posted 15 years ago #
Inas
Member

Thanks, GMMan.....I must have typed an extra space or something in the html string.

Best regards,
Happy Person

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

Whiterabbit, thanks for your candor. Honestly, I think your post does indicate in a much more reasonable and clear manner than mine that, even though GOTD is a good project, even the most devoted to it can honestly admit that there are some frustrations here. It goes back to what I've talked about before, more engagement with the project from GOTD is needed. If it's just a case that they don't have the personnel to have their fingers completely on the pulse of the large product they've created, well, ok. But at least you can see why some of us would get frustrated. Heck, if that's the case, somebody PM me and tell me and I'll shut up about it. But I'm tired of seeing stuff like this and trying to defend it to the newbies. Or not defending it and watching others basically tell them to be quiet and go away. And guess what they do?

As to moderators, GOTD's afraid of Admin's making unauthorized changes? OK, after all, the system working sooooooo well now. GOTD, if you don't like that, provide your own staff moderators or open the page completely up. I'd not prefer the latter, though. Besides, I think they could easily design in limited permissions so that the volunteer admins would have contol over the comments and nothing else.

Let me applaud the person that volunteered. Whabbit, I thought they permitted you to do both. I thought Wizz was going to help you on games, or are you working the main site? If so, three, including the mysterious (to us outsiders, anyway) "admin/key master", might be enough. Is that person staff or a volunteer? Or is that another "state secret"? More importantly, has there been any effort to get the three of you together to work out a moderation schedule? I suspect there has, but not to work out any consistent vision about moderation in the comments section. I suspect I know who let that post today through.

Wizz, I didn't attend to create confusion on that point to the newbies. Though I may not have communicated it well, this thread was specifically NOT directed at them. But, to undo any damage I may have done:

Newbies, from what I know - having to piece this together like Sherlock Holmes because so much of this is, again, what I call a GOTD "state secret", though I can't fathom why - Moderator is only a title that is used in the forums, where I think what they do is excellent and mostly above and beyond the call of duty. To moderate the comments sections on the GOTD pages, you have to be an Administrator. As far as I can piece together - it's another secret - there are four: Whiterabbit, Bubby, Wizzard of Oz and the mysterious "admin". Wizzard is brand new, so hasn't done it long enough to earn any complaints - unless the previous thread congratulating him is wrong, and he isn't an admin. He replaces Lee, who seems to have left over some problem related to being an admin.(?) Whiterabbit does an exceptional job on the Games forum. Bubby has proven himself a very conscientious admin on the main page. And that's all I can tell you about the current state of moderating the comments section of the main site. The confusion comes because all admins also have moderating privileges in this forum. With all that, it makes you wonder why Whiterabbit can honestly (bravo to you again) say what he said. But the reason for all this is apparently another secret.

One more thing. Anybody that wants to post here to tell me I've got all the facts wrong, well, to put it bluntly, where were you before when all these questions were being repeatedly asked?

I just saw Happy's post. Happy, no disrepect to you, but, two years ago and nothing's changed. Same complaints are still being regularly made today. Sincerely, thanks Happy. I didn't need to post all this junk about this project. You proved my point in one link. But, to just clearly state it, I think this clearly shows how little GOTDs management either cares or is in control of their own project. Right now, I don't know which of the two it is and I don't care.

Posted 15 years ago #
GMMan, Hexadecimal Blacksmith
Blocked

Just a blurb: I think that the forums and the main site is tied together. They seem to share the same database. I once tried to log in to the main site by adding /wp-login.php at the end of the domain and it did log me in, but tells me that I have insufficient privileges to view my profile. I dunno...

BTW, at the bottom of every GAOTD page, there's a "patent pending" notice. I wonder what that's all about. It's probably for the wrapper. Of course... if they do patent the wrapper, they'll probably have to fill in their encryption method, which'll give hackers a clue into how to reverse engineer the wrapper. Huh...

Posted 15 years ago #
wizzard_of_ozz2004
Games Master

Correction watcher, the forum admins don't have any say over the main sites. I have the same "privilege" as you do. All i can do is submit a comment and hope it makes it through. That was what I was trying to convey. We are not one in the same. I think Bubby is the only one that has that power unless you count rabbit with the games. And yes the member rabbit is referring to is me.

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

Thanks for the clarification, Wiz. So I assume an Admin over here somehow has more control over the forums? I would ask what's the difference, or why you would even need admins over here, but there's no real problems over here. The problems are over there. So Bubby's supposed to handle the main page 24/7/365? Well, I know that's not true. He's even said that he's not the only moderator over there. Which is not a complaint about what you said, or a criticism of you. It just further illustrates my point. Everything's a secret and the brilliant system - whatever it may be - just doesn't work. Honestly, I don't really care that much about the forums, in the sense that, though not perfect, they work pretty well.

Posted 15 years ago #
wizzard_of_ozz2004
Games Master

I agree, just wanted to clarify for everyone so we're all on the same page. =) Hopefully GOTD will allow me to help with the games side. I don't have time for the software side, but if I did I would volunteer. Many times I have gotten upset by all the stupid comments that make it through.

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

Appreciate your wanting to step and help. Thanks!

Posted 15 years ago #
BuBBy
Teh adnim

I've just seen this - I've been flat out all weekend on other areas of real life.

I was the mod who noticed that a spam comment (gasp) had been approved to the front page - thanks mainly to several comments in the moderation queue that drew my attention to it.

It was removed immediately. Each time I have checked the queue there have been no more than about 6-8 comments waiting. Bear in mind it is a weekend, and this weekend in particular, I am extremely busy.

If there is something urgent - probably the first thing I will notice is if there are Private Messages waiting.

But please drop the agro about the moderation I'm sure everyone (other than me) is doing what they can. Now if you will excuse me, I'm going back to the beach. ;P

Posted 15 years ago #
Archangel
Member

Just an opinion.

This isn't our business, its someone else's and they can run it as they feel is best for them. Even though we are forum members, we are simply "Just Members". I wouldn't let it bother me. Come have a good time in the forums and let whomever do as they see fit whether it be have too few mod's or too many.

No offense to anyone its just an opinion.

Archangel

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

Bubby, how did that post get on the main page in the first place? I was sure from the start that you didn't do it. I guess is was somebody "doing everything they can". BTW, I know there are others beside you. Who? Why should I drop the "argo"? After all, even Whiterabbit was honest enough to express his resevations. Many people don't read the comments section for the same reasons. I hardly think that's GOTD's intention. If it is, it just reinforces my observations. Enjoy the beach. I'll stand by what I said.

Archangel, just because an opinion doesn't jive with your oft repeated "I don't care" philosophy, well, I don't really care. No offense, it's just an opinion. Why should you care, anyway, about what the rest of us care about? We're all just lowly members, anyway.

The truth is: a lot of people here talk out of both sides of their mouths. When they want to gripe, even if it's about others griping, when they want to put people down, even if it's a sublte attempt to fly the put down under the radar, then griping and putting people down suddenly becomes acceptable. In any other case, they're not.

La...La, La...La, La. Let's all have a happy time in the forums! Why not just take all the opportunities to make suggestions out of the forums? Then we can all sit around and talk about the weather. The truth also is: some people would rather not have anything that criticizes the sacred free project, and instead of debating the issue, will do what they can to try and make it go away. Or are you afraid that GOTD will cancel the forums? At least THAT would be a reasonable argument. So in other words, we can only make suggestions for improvement of GOTD as long as we're sure GOTD won't disaprove. Meanwhile, people leave the project on a regular basis. Look at Happy Person's link. The people that talked about this two years ago have disappeared. The project has gotten by because they've been replaced by others. Hopefully, that'll never run out, or they won't be any project to host a forum.

Posted 15 years ago #
Inas
Member

Good morning all, I hope this day finds you well, happy, and in excellent health.

First, to Bubby, WhiteRabbit, Graylox, and other GOTD moderators/admins - we most definitely appreciate and value your fine contributions to this website, for sure. It is hard work to moderate any forum, and it is not easy to deal with people of all different types of personalities and preferences, etc. - thanks much to your hard work and efforts on all of our behalf, that we have this wonderful software service.

I don't want to assume/presume that I can speak on behalf of Watcher 13, but I am sure that both of us have good-hearted intentions (and are well-meaning) in our efforts to ensure that the GOTD site is in 100% tip-top shape, all the time, for we do really care about the longterm success of this fine project and forum, for sure.

Therefore, to that end, the other day (via one of the forums, don't remember which one exactly) I volunteered to assist with moderating the weekend software comments forum, but nobody took me up on my offer - if software technical skills and expertise is not a requirement for anyone to do this, then my offer still stands. I'm ready to help.

With much appreciation,
Happy Person

Posted 15 years ago #
BuBBy
Teh adnim

Any offers for comment moderation - is something that the GOTD team would decide upon - and should probably made directly to them. (Try the contact form)

I don't believe the forums is a place for users to ask for moderation rights to the main site - and I expect requests made in this fashion will probably be ignored.

For reasons I am not about to detail, there is a significant level of trust placed in the comment moderators because of operational info they have access to. I expect that is why to date, they have only allowed 2 forum admins to access and moderate the giveaway portion of the site.

Also I have found it difficult having lots of moderators (or even one moderator) working in parallel while I am trying to process comments or even write replies. Items are put through before I am ready, or I leave a comment in the queue because I am researching a response - and I come back to find the comment has already gone through. Or duplicate comments get put through because each moderator approved one of the comments...Having too many moderators is a little like too many cooks.

The bigger problem I find - which isn't really a major issue (but when it happens it can be annoying), comments that aren't read or understood correctly are approved - which can cause problems. Sometimes I read comments criticising other users, which I normally bin straight away, sometimes these comments get through - and then a chain reaction of user comments come through after they have taken a side, taken aim, and fired!

Unless a moderator can keep on top of the days comments - and some days there can be several threads through the comments - you cannot really judge if subsequent replies are off-topic, uncalled for, just a repeat of what someone else has already said, and so on. It can be like walking in halfway through a conversation, and being able to slot in when someone else criticises #13 and without looking, you already know what post they are talking about.

A casual moderator who just pops in every now and then, doing their best to make sense of some random comments in the queue, while checking weblinks, removing obscenities, keeping track of previous comments, fixing occasional typos (at the request of users), and even deleting abuse from idiot users who think they are contributing.

Then there is the chasing up someone in the GOTD team when there is a problem you cannot fix - can sometimes be like yelling into a black hole and just hoping someone on the other side will hear.

So it's far from perfect, but it is the system I've worked with for the past few years. I'm not convinced that we need even more moderators - I'd settle for an improved system with better lines of communication and response. As an example - I only know one or two people behind the curtain. I don't know if there is one dedicated moderator as well as me, or if there are 20. I have no way of contacting them directly. When there is a problem all I can do is "scream and wait" and tell everyone "I've let them know". Did they get my message? Can it be fixed? How long will it be? I have no bloody idea.

Posted 15 years ago #
BuBBy
Teh adnim

Also, in the beginning - I became a moderator on the main site - only because there were so many "problem comments" getting through (a bit like some of the "foreign" GOTD sites with problem users/comments.

So I was going in simply as a firefighter - putting out fires, deleting comments before they caused too much offense or other posts against most normal sites "Terms of Service".

Now I help out even more - it is my babysitting job.

Posted 15 years ago #
wizzard_of_ozz2004
Games Master

Is the system flawed? Yes. How many systems aren't flawed? How long until there is nothing to complain about? You can't please everyone, and even good intentions can upset some people. There is no failsafe fix for the problem, and there never will. We all have our major gripes about GOTD, but truth is that not all of us are ever going to be happy with the site. My advice is to voice some concern in the one thread where they wanted opinions like this. New GOTD evaluation system.

Posted 15 years ago #

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