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Windows 10 Fall Update Now Live

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Started 9 years ago by mikiem2
Latest reply from ChrisS

mikiem2
Moderator

This morning [11/12/15] Microsoft started a staggered rollout of 10 to the Xbox One. Around 10: AM Eastern it started rolling out to PCs [laptops etc.] already running 10. This is also a staggered rollout, hitting different PCs at different times. I have not seen a published link for ISO files, but an ISO is available at microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/techbench

When I Googled on Microsoft Tech Bench I found a couple of threads in Microsoft forums saying it was OK to use these, but as I'm downloading as I type this, that's all I can say so far.

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

~~but an ISO is available at microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/techbench~~

Tried it with my licensed Windows 10 64 bit VM [upgrade from win7 HP], & no option to skip entering a key, even though that copy of 10 is activated.

The ISOs are now available for MSDN subscribers, or for everyone else, using the media creation tool at microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10

Downloading now so nothing more to report.

Why so anxious? I'm not really, but want to plan & use time on MY schedule, not whatever algorithm that decides for me when a major update happens.

Posted 9 years ago #
bobby.giovannucci
Member

update downloaded and installed perfectly fine using windows update.

Posted 9 years ago #
Dragonlair
Member

This upgrade is incredibly pushy! I haven't seen it on Windows 7 yet but I have on Windows 8.1.

I have gone through and removed about 6 or 7 updates using information given through the Microsoft Community that related to upgrading to 7. I have no GWX icon in my taskbar and no reference to 10 anywhere in either system. Still - I turned on my laptop today and was told I had an important update and to load Windows Update. I did (the "important" update was Windows Defender -- no surprise) but there was an "optional" update for the upgrade to 10. The format of Windows Update for 8.1 is a little different and I had trouble getting to the list of updates without starting it!

I managed and managed to get it unchecked an hidden but I doubt it's stay that way.

I understand that Microsoft will soon move it to "important" rather than "optional" and make it harder to skip.

They have set a goal of how many installs of 10 and they are gonna get it even if they have to trick or bully you into it!

For now, I'm safe but for how long? I do NOT want 10 unless I buy a new machine and it happens to be there.

According to this article, Microsoft is blaming problems with people not able to upgrade rather than people not WANTING it!

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

The setup routine is different than the Insider version of the same Windows 10 build. The Insider update went as smoothly as can be expected with a win10 64 & a win10 32 bit VM. The non-Insider copy of 10 Home 64 I have in a VM wasn't yet offered the update, so I went with the ISO. It worked, had several crashes during the upgrade process, & when it was done had around 6GB of garbage left over, which was a fair reduction from the usual amount. I had a similar experience upgrading a 32 bit Insider copy of 10 on my hard drive.

The bug where setup will stall with a microSD card in place is apparently still there as Microsoft tries to figure that out.

My tablet looks like it's about ready for me to restore a backup, For The 3rd Time. The only 10 upgrade that went through the regular Windows Update almost worked -- it made it to the sign-in screen, but wouldn't quite complete. The 2nd try simply stalled. Another few minutes & I figure it'll be safe to say this 3rd attempt stalled too. And it's been running 10 successfully since it was released.

I'm going to go out on a limb & suggest this forced update by re-installation on a regular basis is not going to make people happy.

Oh well, time to restore the tablet...

Posted 9 years ago #
ChrisS
Administrator

I'm going to go out on a limb & suggest this... is not going to make people happy.

Is there a pool on the percentage of tablets and computers that get returned to retailers after the Holidays because of Windows 10 updates? If 20-25% get returned in a normal year then how many retailers will still be in business in February? Of course, that might mean some good sales in the Spring but you might want to avoid the April Fool's sale.

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

It's hard if not impossible sometimes to say this is how something works with Microsoft &/or Windows... There's a lot that Microsoft never says, stuff they do may have what *seems* unintended consequences, things that are supposed to work one way may not always, and so on. I've just re-read an article on this Windows 10 version update that was untrue -- I don't think it was untrue because the author lied, but rather because he assumed that if something worked one way for him, that's how it must work for everyone.

And so I begin with a caution, that this is stuff I experienced, so please take it for whatever it's worth -- it's offered in the hope that something said might be useful to someone(s).

The latest Insider preview is different than the public release labeled Windows 10 1511 -- the techbench download is different from both of those too, though in that case I can only say the ISO I downloaded requires a key, & I did not go any further. The Insider version is physically different [different sized files] than v.1511. The public releases [1511 32 & 64 bit] I downloaded had problems during install -- call it a crash or stall or freeze, I had to restart the process, often a few times.

The Insider build 10586 downloaded via Windows Update installed without note in a 32 bit & a 64 bit Windows 10 Pro VBox VM. I experienced setup stalling using the 1511 ISO for a 64 bit Windows 10 Home VBox VM, & with the ISO burned to DVD, had the same problems with a 32 bit Windows 10 Pro install on my hard drive.

When you download a new Windows 10 build via Windows Update a Install.esd file is stored in a hidden folder off C:\ [probably something like $Windows_BT but I've seen other names]. You can run [I'll call it an app, though it's really a script with a few apps] esd-decrypter-wimlib *in Windows 10* to turn that Install.esd into a setup ISO. Note that you need at least version 6, rather than the more common 4.7, as that earlier version will make an ISO requiring a key. I found it at a few shareware download sites, but did not see a source site listed when I Googled.

Anyway, I created a setup ISO based on the Insider version of Install.esd from my Windows 10 Pro 64 bit VM. I copied those files to a USB 3.0 stick, booted into my Windows 10 Pro 64 bit install on my hard drive, & ran it that way. It stalled... as it was still in the part of the setup process where I was still in Windows 10, I was able to cancel, but the cancel process stalled as well. I ended it via Task Mgr. cleaned up the hidden folders, restarted, & ran the same setup, but from a DVD this time.

I won't use the word flawless with anything having to do with Windows 10, but the upgrade install went the smoothest & fastest I've ever experienced upgrading Windows 10 builds.

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

Things haven't gone well with my tablet... I'm posting my experiences separately because, well, there's a lot more to say, plus I'm uncertain how much of my troubles are Windows 10, & how much are because of the hardware.

I wanted the update on the tablet most of all because it allowed store apps to be installed to the microSD card. Secondary to that, it runs the Home version of 10, so figured the update was unavoidable. I tried the standard update via Windows Update twice, & both times once I got to the sign-in screen, problems [crashes] only multiplied. I enabled the Insider program to see if I'd get the Insider version offered, but so far after a couple of days the new version of 10 has not been offered by or in Windows Update.

Microsoft is going to be releasing more builds of Windows 10. While the tablet I bought was a cheaper model/brand, it was nonetheless one of the more popular models/brands, so I'm fairly certain there was enough telemetry data sent back to Microsoft that they could know it was a problem. So there are several possibilities. One of those is that the 1511 upgrade may no longer be mandatory for the tablet, having failed twice. That would take care of at least one concern.

A couple of the installation methods I tried might be of use or interest, though ultimately they did not succeed.

I restored a disk image backup from the tablet to a VBox .vdi [Virtual Hard Disk], & fired it up in VBox as-is. It worked, & worked well enough that I was able to upgrade to 1511. Did a disk image backup of that, restored it to the tablet, fired it up, & proceeded to update drivers one by one. That also worked, but I had problems of Windows freezing or stalling when I opened the settings app that never went away. I also updated a graphics driver I shouldn't have, & couldn't get rid of it. In the future one of my 1st steps is going to be to make sure the boot menu is visible -- without one it was impossible to get into Safe Mode where I might have fixed at least that driver problem. At any rate, after a few hours it was plain this attempt was unworkable.

I also formatted the system partition on that .vdi with the restored tablet backup. You need a portion of the Windows 10 AIK to create a Windows 10 WinPE USB stick, ISO, or .vhd etc., so I added that to my Windows 10 Pro 32 bit VM, & make the .vhd [Microsoft format Virtual Hard Disk]. I shut that VM down, removed it's .vdi, adding the new WinPE.vhd + the .vdi from the tablet backup -- I also associated the 1511 ISO with its DVD drive. Starting this VM it booted to WinPE, which let me use Dism to copy the Windows 10 files from the ISO to the system partition of the tablet backup .vdi. Then I did another disk image backup, restoring that to the tablet's drive. That part worked, but again had problems when it got to the point where you sign in.

Using Dism that way is preferred by a lot of [particularly IT] folks. It skips a lot of time & disk space consuming parts of the setup routine, which just winds up using Dism anyway. And since it jumps to the point where setup has gotten all the files in place, but before anything is personalized to your hardware, the contents of the disk at that point should work with any hardware -- you can copy those contents however you want, e.g. backup & restore, & skip even more time &/or work, since you don't have to use Dism each time.

In an IT setting, or if you do enough installations to warrant it, you can maintain a .wim image of Windows setup files, complete with the latest updates & include some drivers, software etc. That speeds things up when you *apply* that image with Dism, since that's stuff that doesn't need to be done once Windows is set up & started.

Note that it's best from everything I've read to create a 32 bit WinPE in a 32 bit copy of Windows, though that may of course be wrong -- I haven't tried it in a 64 bit copy so I don't know. A 32 bit WinPE will work with 32 & 64 bit versions of Windows -- a 64 bit WinPE will only work with 64 bit Windows.

Note too that the WinPE you create with 10's AIK does not have a Windows GUI. When you create a WinPE disc/USB stick from AOMEI or Paragon apps for example, it has a GUI that runs on top of WinPE, but WinPE itself does not have one -- you get a screen with a blue background & a command prompt window.

Otherwise for the tablet I tried copying the files from a 1511 ISO to a USB stick, & using the Media Creation tool to create a setup USB stick, and tried running both from Windows 10, as well as booting to the USB sticks. All of those attempts failed/stalled.

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

Update on the tablet -- problems arise when it connects to the WiFi router, which kills Windows. Got the update installed using the copy I had updated in or as a VM [as in last post], but was more careful about what drivers I updated once on the tablet. I went that route because I was able to say with some confidence that it was a complete, working install. The Realtek wireless networking chip's drivers are fine, as is win10, until all the other services & stuff start when it connects to the WiFi router -- that would hint that it's all those services/processes that are the problem. Ordered a USB wired network adapter, which should determine if the problem is limited to the wireless networking end of things &/or the Realtek chip/drivers.

Either way this is kind of a big deal... That Realtek chip, if at fault, is Hugely popular & common. The only uncommon hardware on this tablet for that matter is the touchscreen & it's drivers, which is still common enough that Windows Update has a newer driver available. That means that there could be a LOT of hardware out there [I'd guess in the many millions] having problems with this fall update of win10, & indeed I'm seeing more & more comments/reports of similar difficulties with this & other brands of devices. And remember the problems I had getting the update installed with a VBox VM -- VBox VMs have to number in the many millions I'd imagine -- as well as those encountered with this PC, which uses some of the most popular & common hardware components available.

All of which may or may not come to explain Microsoft's quietly pulling this update, at least from their Media Creation Tool, which is how Microsoft ~~says~~ said you're supposed to install, upgrade, or create installation media for Windows 10 if you don't go through Windows Update [they've changed their directions on how to upgrade]. Lots of people are reporting that it's been pulled from Windows Update as well, but someone from Microsoft denied that to one of the sites reporting on this.

Soooo... it might turn out that Microsoft re-releases this fall update, with or without announcement. It might turn out that they limit its availability, as Windows Update checks your hardware & Windows version before it offers updates. It might turn out that they simply wanted more control over how the update is distributed. It might turn out that there's some other problem(s) -- I've read reports that a fresh install using a win7/8 key to a device that had never seen win10 previously sometimes made an error, offering the pro version when it should have been win10 Home.

Why all of that might matter... Folks may or may not have problems trying to upgrade to the new version, so be prepared [Back Up] or delay the upgrade as you see fit. The problems I experienced with my tablet [which others have reported &/or confirmed] might well extend to netbooks, laptops, all-in-ones etc., because a great many use the same network chip as well as much of the other electronics. That could mean problems if/when the update does install, with win10 misbehaving or outright dying. It could mean lots of people not seeing this upgrade in Windows Update, & it does mean that for now at least, that you cannot download the newer version ISOs.

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

I maintain that one difference between the roll-out of win7 vs. win10 is that with win7 Microsoft in effect paid Insiders -- they tracked a lot more data, with a separate spyware(?) type app, & they gave them [promo] copies of Windows & Office. Whatever the reasons, their current methods of testing are IMHO obviously lacking. Along those lines I wanted to link to something by Paul Thurrott -- I can imagine Chris nodding in agreement when he reads it. ;)

petri.com/paul-thurrotts-short-takes-november-20

Cloud first, mobile first? How about cloud only?

It’s become increasingly obvious to me that Microsoft’s long-term future is in the cloud, and more specifically in the business/enterprise cloud, and even more specifically with Microsoft Azure. In fact, walking through this scenario with folks at Stacked 2015 this week in Manchester, England, I basically talked myself into believing that Microsoft’s client-side businesses will essentially fall off one-by-one over time until all that’s left, essentially, is Azure. This isn’t a horrible outcome, assuming you can give up your fixation on shiny consumer baubles, and I suspect Microsoft will do quite well for itself against a handful of other major players, such as Amazon and Google. But what Microsoft has going for it, of course, is a legacy with enterprises and a proven ability to move their existing infrastructures forward without requiring them to drop everything they’re already doing.

Posted 9 years ago #
ChrisS
Administrator

After reading Thurrott’s article it finally dawned on me what Microsoft is trying to do - they want to turn themselves into IBM. Back in the day, IBM Data Centers ruled the world. Evidently, Microsoft would rather deal with hundreds of Business Customers than millions of individuals. I can't say that I blame them but once you remove the Microsoft desktop then you're just another server farm farmer and farming is a commodity business with exceeding thin margins. It's tough to outsource to "Server Farm, Inc." when the execs see "Microsoft" everywhere, it's a lot easier when all they see is "Android" or "Linux". Could Windows 10 really be a stealth Oracle product?

Whatever the reasons, their current methods of testing are IMHO obviously lacking.

Yeah, at first blush the new testing model is all about "The Wisdom of Crowds" with the allegedly millions of testers. But it's a self-selected crowd and those are rarely an impartial and unbiased sample. Hopefully, the folks who came up with "Let's have social media test our new OS!" get a big bonus this year as they'll likely be unemployed next year.

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

Reports of more problems with the November update are surfacing this Monday morning. 1st there were reports that folks who should get the Windows 10 Home version as an update were getting Windows 10 Pro -- now the reverse also seems to be true, with those who should get Pro instead getting Home. Microsoft has said there are problems with the 1511 AIK, the installation & image maintenance toolkit used mainly by IT to get Windows & software on all their PCs/laptops etc. And there appears to be a problem enabling Bitlocker [used to encrypt hard drives] if you don't upgrade from a win10 install with it enabled.

As for my tablet, got it working, I think, as something else may surface that so far I'm blissfully unaware of. It involved a fresh install of 10 to a bare drive, with win10 1511 setting up an odd partition arrangement that's different from what they've been recommending since 8...

On a GPT disk, the older arrangement was a hidden FAT32 partition for the boot files, followed by a hidden partition for Microsoft stuff [e.g. bitlocker], followed by the Windows partition, ending with the Recovery partition. 1511 starts the disk off with the hidden Recovery partition, followed by the FAT32 partition with the boot files, followed by a 16MB hidden Microsoft partition, followed by the Windows partition. That Microsoft partition being only 16MB [in the past ~100MB] may be related to Bitlocker problems. Without wiping the disk, e.g. with an upgrade, the original partition order is maintained, with a new Recovery partition added after Windows but before the old Recovery partition.

As an aside: I've seen win10 using a C:\Recovery folder that held boot image & critical driver files, using a Recovery partition with the boot image & additional recovery files, & with 1511, a Recovery partition that only seems to hold the boot image files. That boot image file, Winre.wim, has been used since 7 to provide the command prompt for example that might appear on the boot menu page along with Safe Mode.

Anyway, installed a fresh copy of 10 Home 32 bit to a fresh VHD using VBox, which allowed me to install the cumulative update that came out shortly after 1511 [& included new versions of a few files I suspected were part of my problems]. It also got me a known good win10 install, that after Compacting Windows I transferred to the tablet's drive.

I had ordered a USB wired network adapter, which I used instead of the tablet's wireless, updated drivers online [through Windows Update], updated the 1/2 dozen unknown devices [in Device Mgr.] from a copy of the old FileRepository folder, & once everything seemed to be working correctly, turned off the USB adapter & turned on the wireless. It worked. After fighting with this off & on for a week+ I took a more shotgun approach, so I can't say which of the steps I took was unnecessary.

Posted 9 years ago #
Anonymous
Unregistered

To become the IBM of the 21-th century you do not need powerful laptops and a sophisticated local OS. It is sufficient to have a smart terminal, such as a chromebook. Be it a dedicated machine or an old laptop running chrome OS. The terminal is only needed to input data and present the results. Processing is done on servers and storage is in the cloud. Client/Server Architecture we called that twenty or more years ago. If CrisS is correct, Google has a better chance of supplying the smart terminal than Microsoft.

Off Topic: my nine year old Sony laptop (ex XP, now W10) that tumbled four feet to the ground and killing its power connector two months ago is up and running again after I broke the bottom of the casing to reconnect the power line. I had pulled it out its connector inadvertently in an effort to get enough cable to make a new connection to the power supply.

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

Yeah, at first blush the new testing model is all about "The Wisdom of Crowds" with the allegedly millions of testers. But it's a self-selected crowd and those are rarely an impartial and unbiased sample.

I'm chuckling a bit thinking about the fine line [*if* one exists] between crowd wisdom & mob mentality.

I'm also trying to think of the nicest way to say that a significant portion of the world's population is made up of individuals not making full use of their intellectual capabilities. Those who do IMHO are more interested in helping out other individuals than big corporations, so the feedback Microsoft gets from users leans a bit towards, well, stuff that might get these people heckled online. To me it's telling that one of Microsoft's *improvements* was to allow people posting feedback to share their wise contributions with the world on F/Book etc. Again *to me*, most people wanting or needing to shout to the world: "Look how smart I am", usually aren't.

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

If CrisS is correct, Google has a better chance of supplying the smart terminal than Microsoft.

I think it's an interesting topic, which IMHO no company is in the perfect place to capitalize on. Google & Microsoft don't understand individual consumers -- Apple does [maybe too well]. Microsoft has an *in* with corp IT, but OTOH corp IT is despised, or nearly so, by most of the biz world. Nobody trusts Microsoft, though Google is getting there Fast. Amazon has the tech resources & personnel, but often can't get taken seriously regarding anything but their cloud services.

Google has recently said they want to be more than an ad company, but they're in a few difficult places or circumstances at the moment. Because it's open Android is a mess when it comes to fragmentation, security, & manufacturers mangling their own implementations while they also smother it in bloatware. Chromebooks have hit a brick wall. They allegedly want to combine the two without cannibalizing or destroying either market, which is going to be very hard for them to pull off.

Apple *might* be the surprise... They've got an in with corp IT because of the widespread use of their tablets. Corp IT *may* be the reason they're countering Microsoft's new Surface. With their cash reserves, making a big push to have a bigger place in corp IT with servers etc. would certainly be possible.

All while Microsoft faces some new potential hurdles. It's long time ally Intel is embracing Android while facing future competition in the server markets from companies like Qualcom. And since it's competing in the hardware markets now, formerly friendly vendors aren't always being so friendly nowadays. Dell for example *might* be moving away from consumer biz to focus on corp IT -- they've just bought control of VMware, Microsoft's Hyper V competition.

my nine year old Sony laptop (ex XP, now W10) that tumbled four feet to the ground and killing its power connector two months ago is up and running again

Cool! I'm surprised that the CPU is 10 compatible.

Posted 9 years ago #
Anonymous
Unregistered

Cool! I'm surprised that the CPU is 10 compatible.

It is an Intel Centrino Core Duo T2050 1.6 GHz

The laptop is a Sony VAIO VGN-N11M/W with the original 80 GB HD, 1 GB RAM. It has a second HD of 500 GB in place of the original DVD-writer.

Posted 9 years ago #
ChrisS
Administrator

"I'm chuckling a bit thinking about the fine line [*if* one exists] between crowd wisdom & mob mentality"

There's a big difference - crowd wisdom is the collective intellect while mob mentality is enflamed emotion. Crowd wisdom may have some emotion but mob mentality has no intellect. The term "unthinking mob" is redundant because a mob can't think.

In Microsoft's case, they may well have received some crowd wisdom that was over-ridden by the Redmond Mob Mentality (they got good feedback but it conflicted with what they wanted to hear). It's also possible that the massive Insider Program was designed solely to generate Social Media buzz and positively influence share price while a smaller Insider Program generated the actual feedback. In other words, they listened to the customers they value and simply used the rest. Whatever the actual case, the testing program doesn't appear to have been successful from the average consumer's point of view.

Posted 9 years ago #

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