Debate: Is it worth installing .net framework, which some of the GOTDs need?

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Debate: Is it worth installing .net framework, which some of the GOTDs need?

(64 posts) (14 voices)

Started 15 years ago by watcher13
Latest reply from watcher13

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watcher13
Member

Topic for a hopefully beneficial discussion:
A significant amount of the GOTDs are written with .net framework, and many of the users don't seem to have it. I didn't even realize I have it, because, supposedly 3.0 is incorporated in Vista. I'd been avoiding .net framework giveaways because I didn't think I had it. I tried one that was written in 1.1 before I'd read the system requirements and it didn't work. I assumed it was because I didn't have .net framework, but I didn't get an error that said that, so I probably jumped to a conclusion.

A lot of people are turned off by these giveaways because, in the simplistic sense, it means many of the downloads are practically 10 times larger than similar software not written with .net would be. So I ask those good folks here that are much more sophisticated than I am (that ain't hard): Is .net framework worth it? Will most developers eventually be using it? What other useful functions can it facilitate? Or is just more bloatware from the Evil Empire of Darth Bill?

I think it would really help the GOTD users to know, (And for those who already have it, whether it's worth keeping it updated - does Microsoft push new versions through update, or will we have to watch for them in the future?) If the answer is "yes, it's worth it for most users", then it would increase the giveaway downloads. I definately see people who won't touch a download if they need to install it. Some of them don't have the space. Should they clear out some stuff and make room?

I'm sure your insights will be most helpful.

Posted 15 years ago #
thewebmaster
Member

When you have dial-up, the answer is always no. Don't even try it. It takes soooo long. Wish I could though...

Posted 15 years ago #
Anonymous
Unregistered

I have NET Framework 1, 1.1, 2, 3,ASP, CA, CLR, PreXP, Hotfix, just some now told to get 3.5 my haddisk be full be for long, we be on # 5.

Posted 15 years ago #
sukibabe
Games Junkie

I see nothing wrong with the .Net Framework (I have 2.0) other than it is a space hog!

I had it on my Main Desktop and had to install it on my Laptop because my Poker site requires it...I have more of a problem with the security updates for Xp...which M$ likes to do every month!

I always do the advanced and not the recommended ...I have blocked M$ from downloading SP3 and IE7 or their new IE8 beta!

I have cable internet, so it's not so bad...I know the Dial-up dilemma...I used to have it...

The choice is always yours...

Suki

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

Thanks, Suki.
I'm especially interested in what having it will do for you - if there are any advantages other than just running software develop for it - or if there are any negatives. Or is it just more bloat? On the giveaway that I originally posted this, it was a long time before it passed moderation - which wasn't unreasonable, so I'm not complaining. But I don't think many saw it. I'm sure some of the other real techies here (a category to which I don't qualify) have good knowledge on this issue. Fubar expressed a quick opinion later that same day as to how a lot of people already have it, but I don't know. I thought it didn't come with XP. Is it in an XP service pack? As hotdodge says, 3.5 - which is newer than what came with Vista - has been out since last year.

Just lookng into it now, I see that the 1.1 and 2.0 are around 30 megs. Is this right? Because I got the feeling from folks in the comments section that is was 50 megs or much larger. Can't tell with 3.0 and 3.5, because Microsoft has gone to using the self activated download packages, like they use to trigger manual downloads from the downloads center. I assume that's what'll happen: It'll pull it from the downloads center.

I think asking this question is worthwhile for GOTD itself. If there were good enough reasons to download the framework, more of these offerings would be downloaded by the users, at least those not on dialup. Of course, if the early versions were truly 30 megs, you could do it overnight with help from a download manager.

I'll keep monitoring, but I think I'll bump this one up the next time there's a giveway that requires .net framework to put this subject back in people's minds, and maybe get some insight that will help all of us.

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

I forgot, Suki: spacehog? How big roughly is it installed?

Posted 15 years ago #
Whiterabbit-uk
Games Guru

Hi Watcher, I have pretty much the same reasons as Sukibabe for installing ,net framework on my system. I know several of my games wouldn't work without it, so naturally I'd have it straight away. I've never noticed any problems with having it installed so often wonder what all the fuss is about when community members say they wouldn't touvch it with a barge pole. Still each to their own. I just woudn't miss out on the games. You can read up all you need to know about .net framework from the following Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Framework

regards

Whiterabbit

p.s. The download size (for v2.0) from the following address is 24.5Mb

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=0856EACB-4362-4B0D-8EDD-AAB15C5E04F5&displaylang=en

Posted 15 years ago #
Anonymous
Unregistered

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/default.aspx
Get the Framework
* .NET Framework 3.5
* .NET Framework 3.0 Service Pack 1
* .NET Framework 3.0 Redistributable Package
* .NET Framework 2.0 Service Pack 1 (x86)
* .NET Framework 1.1 Service Pack 1
* .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package

as for size of NET framework 2 [ 25 MB to get the next next it say 200 MB download ]
you need only for thing's like if you go to new my PC need the NET Framework fist be for fiting Motherboard drivers like VIA Hyperion Pro Setup http://www.viatech.com/
Video Display drivers Radeon 9600 Series ATI http://www.powercolor.com.tw
the old set did not need NET Framework

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

Thanks, Whabbit and hotdodge. I'm coming to the conclusion that's it's all about the size Whabbit. As you know, and hotdodge says, even 1.1 is 100 megs. Whether right or wrong - the whole point of my question here - many users coming to GOTD are evaluating in terms of that day's giveaway. Just in case I'm not being clear, people are looking at it this way: If the giveaway is 10 megs and you need to install as much as 200 megs or more (what is it unpacked and installed?) framework, then, in the short view, you're taking the time and space to download 210 megs. If there's freeware that's 10 megs and has the same feature set, users are saying, "Now why would I travel around the world to the East to get to the next town, which is 10 miles to the west of me". I.E., it's seems an awful large investment of time and space to get something you can probably get as good or better elsewhere for a fraction of the time and space.

That's my point in this question. Would the users be better off if they took the plunge. Certainly it would be better for the developers here, many who seem to suffer by using framework. I don't do much gaming and haven't started creating video. Without those needs, any old hardware will do. Heck, you could word process on a 386, and you can do low grade audio on 10 year old machines. Many people haven't gotten involved in the hardware update arms race and have older machines (I wonder if PeterM is real?). I got my first multi-gig hard drive last year. I know the mindset. I mean, heck, we still frequently use the word dial-up on these pages! (I realize it's sometimes a necessity. No offense webmaster.) Many others are so in to downloading - videos, games, music - and, probably, so disinterested in cleaning, they quickly run out of space.

So I still feel people need some good advice on whether they should take the plunge. And, I suspect some aren't downloading because they don't realize framework came bundled with Vista. I didn't. Way to keep us informed, Darth Bill!

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

By the way, hotdoge, you've confused me a little with your posts. I noticed your post on the Aussie firewall was in plain language, but here you did a lot of "abbreviating". I'm afraid at least a few of us here don't know all chat conventions and a lot of other tech jargon. I'm not a big online chatter. I think I got the jist of it, but I might need you to dumb your posts down a little for me. Thanks. :)

Posted 15 years ago #
sukibabe
Games Junkie

Well it seems I have a stowaway, lol!

Sorry I had a Thanksgiving hangover......

2.0 expands to 185.00MB

My stowaway, which I just saw 3.0 is 245.00MB expanded

Now how did that get on my plate???

Them little Micro Money Demons must have snuck through my defenses,lmao!!!
That is why I installed another 320 gig hard drive on my desktop...

Suki

P.S. Watcher http://www.teenchatdecoder.com/
Not that your a kid, I'm not...just an old babe that can't remember all those Acronyms...rofl

Posted 15 years ago #
Whiterabbit-uk
Games Guru

Hi Watcher. I suppose it all depends upon how much space you have on your hard drive/s. I'm not worried about installing such 'piddling' amounts on my computers because I'm lucky enough to have around 1.5Tb on each of my computers so 200Mb is a drop in the ocean. On a system with 1.5Tb of storage you could install 7500 copies of the net framework (just trying to put it in perspective). The average new computer usually comes with at least a 500Gb hard drive now, which would enable you to install 2500 copies of Net framework and older computers with typically a 80Gb hard drive (very small by today’s standards) you’d be able to install it 400 times.

It really does depends upon whether or not you really want to play the game or use the application in question that uses the .net framework. I don't think the analogy you made made sense (to me at least)??? It seems plain and simple; if you want A but need B to get it to work then you need to install A & B. Otherwise you may as well forget the program in question.

With respect to the short term view you envisaged with respect to using 210 Mb for a 10Mb installation - true, but in the long term this figure will be reduced significantly; the more programs and games you install that require the net framework.

I don't mean to sound sarcastic btw, just trying to tell it the way I see it.

Posted 15 years ago #
sukibabe
Games Junkie

Yes Whabbit, and my son said I would never fill up that 80 gig hard drive, lmao!!!
He knew I was into gaming when he helped me pick out my Dell...he just didn't know how much...

How many computers do you own and did you have to make an addition to your house?

Just kidding!

Take care all...

Suki

Posted 15 years ago #
Theleecher
Member

You either have to decide to exclude ALL .NET stuff (tough if you have an ATI graphics, as their control centre is a .net app) or you may as well keep it updated.

As I understand it, everything up to 3.5 is actually layered onto 2.0, and the only practical way to keep the 2.0 updated.

The outlier is .net 1.1 - and while some 1.1 apps will run in 2.0, others won't, and a few will run, but will not install without 1.1 as they version check it.
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=94991901-BFC4-485E-BCAE-C9DF0ACCDAAE&displaylang=en - Microsoft USB Flash Drive Manager is one of those apps that version checks, but apparently will run under .net 2.0 if 1.1 is uninstalled - I believe there was also a hack to install under 2.0, either by breaking open the MSI file, or by faking the registry entry that it would be checking.

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

Thanks everybody.
I think we're getting closer but I'm not sure we've gotten there, yet. Maybe because I've phrased it wrong. Whabbit, I don't take you sarcastically at all. I see your point, absolutely. I've got a modest 224 gigs, but that's enough not to be concerned about 200 megs (at least, yet. In fact I'm not even close). Yet, many people are closer to Suki's situation.

So let me try and put it differently. I don't think the question is any different than what we usually end up debating on a giveaway. Is this important enough compared to what else is out there that it's worth getting. Or to put it in the negative, just because the minions of Darth Bill develop a very large coding framework, should we all be lemmings and follow along? I don't worry about stuff like that, but....

You, Suki, hotdoge, and leecher all got it (or got benifits from already having it)with good reason: because you needed it for something. On the other hand, I (who didn't initially know I had it) haven't seen anything in months of coming to GOTD - or anywhere else for that matter, that I found enough a necessity to have made a special effort to get it. Would that be the bottom line advice to GOTD frequenters: If people really need an app., badly, then they'll have to get it. Or will it go the way that leecher and hotdoge are hinting, becoming so integrated into hardware that everybody will have to have it?

If it's the former, then I'm just over thinking it and making a mountain out of a molehill. I've been known to do that. I was partly wondering if it had other benefits in the day to day working of Windows. Is it sort of like a directX thing?

Maybe the answer is that it will eventually be in everyone's version of Windows, and everybody will have machines with the necessary space. But, in the short term, look at how many people on GOTD get rabid when someone suggests every app. offered should have Vista's support because it's the wave of the future. I'm not convinced Bill and his henchmen will be able to get people to play along that quickly, so I'm not sure there still isn't a point to this discussion. So I'm still open to further input.

Thanks again.

Posted 15 years ago #
sukibabe
Games Junkie

Have you seen the Mojave ad's pushing Vista, lol, now those really crack me up!

To quote someone "They will have to pry Xp out of my cold dead hands"!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you hit the nail on the head as far as the .net framework, it will become a part of a pc's life...
I will keep my XP machines until they die of natural causes, even if Micro Money stops supporting it, then I just won't visit their sites and stop supporting other sites that require the use of IE, the passport network, and give up my Poker playing days!

I might have to buy a Mac...lol!

Suki

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

Yeah, Suki. Your post brought a lot of stuff to mind, but I don't want to get too far off topic. I did Macs a long time ago. As to Vista, regardless of whether ultimately it's better or worse than XP or anything else, a lot of what I read is that the problems people have revolve around getting used to it. And most of it is like XP. My machine was a demonstrator. Last one on the shelf. I believe that the store's tech. had already ironed out most of the bugs because she/he knew the right settings to make to avoid having the machine's returned. Or HP knew how to smooth out the problems at the factory. Also a lot of problems Microsoft has had, historically, have been in upgrading versions. Microsoft's upgrades just don't know how to live in the house of the previous tenant, so to speak. As I hear it, most of the problems with Vista have been with users who have upgraded from XP.

When I was doing a little with Macs, they kept trickling out tiny mods to the OS in dribs and drabs, expecting you to keep paying for essential minor changes. 8.1, 8.2, 8.3 or something like that. Versus the Windows habit of releasing a buggy, botched up, new OS every 3 years. I remember a computer guru friend of mine talking all night to a Microsoft tech about an enterprise problem he was having. At one point, the tech said, "you don't want to know about how '95 is coded". Meaning, of course, that they just slapped some code together to meet a deadline they weren't ready for. And thus it has every been at Microsoft, throughout time immemorial.

I'm starting to think the real answer to the .net framework and all the other questions is Linux. Whether it's the Evil Empire of Darth Bill, or the company with the overpriced "computer for the (really dumb) rest of us", customer satisfaction will apparently never keep up with the obsession for profit taking. Contrast that with how many small developers we know put customers first. Often until Darth Bill absorbs them. And freeware developers who actually care about their projects. Only Linux is of the people, by the people, etc.... Oh well, like a lot of other things in my life, "one of these days".

Didn't mean to get heavy, but most of people's computer problems seem to revolve around how to correct, adapt to, put up with, workaround (so forth and so on) some goofy idea of Microsoft.

Folks might be interested in this article from the veteran tech writer Paul Thurott, who was there all through the rollout of Vista. All the way back to 2003 when it was rolled out under the Longhorn name. He expresses his disappointment, but no need to necessarily read it all. What I think is important is his contention that there's a good Microsoft and a bad Microsoft. And guess what little weasel is the head of "Bad Microsoft". In fact, I see more writers talking about "Good Microsoft" and "Bad Microsoft" and hear there starting to talk about it at conventions.

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista_5308_05.asp

Sorry for a wordy response to a fun post, but those things kinda spilled out when I read yours. Thanks for the laugh, though. :)

Posted 15 years ago #
RunesageMagik
Member

I'd heard mixed things about .Net Framework, but finally gave in and installed one of the updated versions a couple three months back. Didn't have any trouble initially, but in the past week after installing AOL's AIM in order to chat with someone (and because I block ads AND AOL's an advertizing whore), my PC is stumbling over a poorly written piece of code in AIM that's triggering the Just-in-Time debugger to pop up each time I launch the @#%!&^! thing. The pop up cycles through the "do you wanna debug" nonsense about 5 times before releasing, and it occurs when I try to open various paths within AIM, too. I've only begun researching a workaround/fix, but from what I'm reading, a LOT of people are p*ssed off at the idiots at Microsoft Visual Studio for putting this out without a kill switch to disable the stupid thing. (unless you own the stupid software).
You can't shut it off by setting Registry key to 0 -
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows Script\Settings\JITDebug

And, nope, doesn't help to play with the two options in - InternetProps | Advanced | Browsing | Disable Script Debug

Posted 15 years ago #
Anonymous
Unregistered

If you are on dial up (which I have seen mentioned) then goto a news agents or a flea market and look for the disks given away free with computer magazines.

They usually have needed files on them that are quite hefty downloads.

Posted 15 years ago #
BuBBy
Teh adnim
@Rune: That sounds familiar - I had to do the same thing a short while ago - I have a bit more info bookmarked.

You need to "delete" 2 registry keys to kill JIT Debugger.
- HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\AeDebug\Debugger
- HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\.NETFramework\DbgManagedDebugger
and for 64 bit - also kill these ones:
- HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Wow6432Node\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\AeDebug\Debugger
- HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Wow6432Node\Microsoft\.NETFramework\DbgManagedDebugger
For the full explaination - go Here or Here

For an explaination of the permissible registry values on the key
- HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\.NETFramework\DbgJITDebugLaunchSetting
Go Here

A Simple checkbox (for people without visual studio installed) would've made it so much easier.
Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

Thanks RunesageMagi, Lee, and Bubby for useful posts that add to this discussion. I'm semi-laying low until the next giveaway that requires .net framework to repost this thread in the comments section. I think it got posted to late last time to do any good.

Your problem brings up an interesting philosophical question. (I'll try to be short.) I'm definately in the smaller is better school. I especially prefer standalones. Don't have to worry about registry entries, for one thing. It sometimes weird for me when people complain in GOTD about standalone giveaways because they have no installers. "It didn't put on icon on my desktop." Please give me standalones!

How it relates to your problem Rune: Microsoft, of course, is the original "500 pound gorilla" that sits wherever it wants. In yesterday's virtual desktop giveaway I wrote a comment about Microsoft's Desktop Windows Manager bundled in Windows Aero, supposedly one of the big Vista attraction. The only problem is: if you run a program incompatible with Aero it turns off, and you lose all the functionalities. I realize bells and whistles do require more complex code, but how many bells and whistles do you really need? I always thought the best way to build an audience was to make your software as compatible as possible, rather than forcing the other children to play your game. It'll be interesting to see if we get any more back pats or slams on .net framework here.

To be fair, though, AOL doesn't have the best rep. for playing with the other children, either.

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

It just struck me. If anybody's programmed in .net framework it would be interesting to hear from you. I don't program, yet, but this incorporates Visual Basic. It's just that, I don't remember Visual Basic every being this HUGE. Do all the extras in .net framework really revolutionize programming (or the available results) in Visual Basic?

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

Okay let me reactivate this folks since DDWidget requires it. Maybe we'll get some more interesting answers and maybe come closer to a recommendation to those who are bugged by the need to download 200 megs to be able to use a 2.5 meg program. I'm running late today, hopefully my comment post on this will be moderated in time for some people to see it.

Posted 15 years ago #
Buzz
Member

Quote: "Is it worth installing .net framework, which some of the GOTDs need?"

For me, not yet.

Posted 15 years ago #
RobCr
Member

Watcher13,
I have programmed in VB for many years.
I currently use VB6, and will never program in .NET (I like to keep things simple).
The version of VB in .NET is very different from VB6, and MS should not have been allowed to call it VB (who do they think they are ?).
It is so different, that the millions of programs that were developed in VB6, cannot be upgraded to .NET
So this is the MS message to all the businesses out there that have programs written in VB6. You have to pay your developer to re-write it from scratch.
It is lucky that I am not bitter and twisted.

Someone mentioned they like programs that do not require installation (they just run).
90% of my programs are like that.
Also whenever I get other developers programs, I love the ones that are stand alone.

Rob

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

Rob, thanks for a developer's perspective. I was certainly hoping to get one and yours is an informative one. I have the bad habit of going on too long, but what you said dovetails with something I just submitted in the comments section, so I'll reproduce it here. The longer this discussion goes on, the more I'm leaning you're way and having similar thoughts. Before I post that, I'm the standalone lover, and I'd tell you I love you, but you'd get the wrong idea. (I swear it's just a joke!) :) I'd love to look at your stuff. If the moderators wouldn't mind, post a link to any for public consumption.

This is a response to reghacker, who is an EXCELLENT and very knowledgable poster in the comments section. But here we don't agree. He said we should stop whining about .net and then reproduced a lot of explanatory stuff from Wikipedia. Here's my response:

Sorry I’m so late to respond on the .net framework issue I brought up, but I’ve got a life, too. Reghacker your posts are uniformly excellent and I appreciate them, but I’ve got to quibble with you here. Nobody’s whining about .net framework. We want to be sold on it one way or the other. I know you’re sincere, but sounds like you drank the Kool-Aid on this one. To a certain extent, I don’t care what Microsoft says. I was partly wondering whether there was any more benefits to it, but I think I get the idea. Microsoft decided to “improve” the developing format - mainly Visual Basic - so they wrote a HUGE developing environment. But is it a huge improvement, or just a huge bloat? After all, we deal with this issue every day here. There are other options out there. Just because Darth Bill dictates, that doesn’t mean we must obey. Micorosoft needs to convince us it’s better for us, not just them. Are the apps. developed in .net SO much better, or, for that matter, SO much easier for developers? That’s the real question. So this is Microsoft’s next big thing. No, wait! That was Longhorn, no Vista, no Mojave (Hee). Maybe Microsoft’s next big thing is Mac or Linux.

The Brainex people have apparently been watching. Maybe they’ll give their 2 cents on why they used .net and why those that don’t have it should get it.

Posted 15 years ago #
BuBBy
Teh adnim

Basically it comes down to this - you don't have to use anything.

Your PC is your own - if you don't want to run any particular software on your PC - then don't install it. The Microsoft Police won't come knocking if you refuse to run their software. Nobody will care. Nobody....

However - there is a growing pool of software that requires .NET to operate, so keep in mind - if you don't install .NET, there is a cost - lots of software won't work for you.

If you can't run that software - I don't care. In fact nobody probably cares. (The developer might but there are lots of other people who will install the software if you won't).

The world won't end if you do install .NET - and you will be able to run heaps of new software. (YAY). Or if you don't install it - the range of your software selection will be more restricted. (Boo-hoo... oh hang on a sec.... nobody cares).

Posted 15 years ago #
RobCr
Member

Hi Watcher13,
I was about to post a PS to my post -

Whilst I am muttering about backward compatibility (actually the lack of it).
MS cannot even get it right for their .NET frameworks.
If they had provided backward compatibility, then any installation of a later version, should automatically remove all earlier versions of the .NET framework.

Rob

Posted 15 years ago #
watcher13
Member

I thought each version updated the previous. You mean they just pile up? I know you were talking about VB, but .net is at least backware compatiblein the way it works, isn't it? I can run 1.1 apps on 3.5, can't I? "The Evil Empire, bringing you bloat since the 90s!" (Or even longer?)

Posted 15 years ago #
BuBBy
Teh adnim

For someone who has programmed in VB - I have never seen backward compatibility in any of the runtimes: (from VB version 1.0 to 6.0 - granted the first 3 were 16 bit only)

The Visual Basic 6 SP6 runtime library, also called vb6 runtime files or vbrun dll set, are required to run programs that were written in Visual Basic 6. It can be difficult to know whether a program needs these files because often an author fails to mention it in the help files or documentation. Typically the way you find out is that you run the program and an error message appears 'A required .DLL file was not found', 'Runtime error' (caution, this error has lots of different causes) or 'Error: the file msvbvm60.dll could not be found.'

Another catch is that there are 6 major versions of Visual Basic, each with their own runtime library set (6 sets in total). Plus to make life really difficult, Visual Basic also has service pack releases. Fortunately, these are backward compatible but still can be a pain. The current set is Service Pack 6 (SP6) released in late March 2004 and it will run files written with VB 6 SP1 to SP6 .

(ie. To run all VB programs - you need all of the runtimes for VB1, VB2, VB3, VB4, VB5 and VB6 - although VB3, 5 and 6 are the most likely versions you will find in the wild)

So Microsoft have never been big on backward compatibility between versions ... or are we talking about 'forward compatibility'?

ah well who really cares - if you don't want to download .NET or a .NET program - don't beat yourself up about it - just don't download it. (I won't tell if you don't tell).

Posted 15 years ago #

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