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Just what does Windows 10 REALLY offer?

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Started 9 years ago by Dragonlair
Latest reply from mikiem2

Dragonlair
Member

I've been hearing about this for years and lately almost constantly. The commercials I've been seeing says it doesn't need anti-virus and security -- say what? Now it's out and I'm hearing even more and I'm doing my own googling and checking.

Just what really is new and improved about this?

First, it's got that big patch to plug security issues (no anti-virus/security??????). Then I hear that it's got a problem because some goof decided that nobody needed more than 512 shortcuts. The highly vaunted restored Start Menu doesn't work right if you have more. I have about 1500!

The new start menu that I've seen doesn't come close to what I need. The first part is OK - combination of 7 and 8.1. The second part (what used to be "All Programs" is now "All Apps" and is a sorted list of ALL your shortcuts -- no organization). What I have now is an "All Programs" list of 8 FOLDERS (one is temporary while I'm beta testing the product). Each folder opens to other items and folders in a nice tree organization. A few clicks is all that's needed to get to anything and no searching through a humongous list.

I do not want to use 3rd party software. I already have to do that because I don't trust Windows Calendar. After having it just flat quit working on me twice and the only solution from Microsoft was to create a new user, I switched to Vue-Minder Lite.

I now understand that they've taken away the ability to make Windows wait for my OK to do updates. I have always set it to notify me of updates and then I decide when and what to install. They FORCE you to let it have it's own way on that with 10. How can you have a "hide update" feature if you have no control over what's updating?

They've decided to totally remove one application - Windows Media Center. That's not a problem with me because I didn't even know I had it but to remove it without notification could make some users very upset.

What new features make it so great? Yes, I see there is a "reverse" ability (30 days) which explains why it doesn't destroy the original data but that's not a reason to go to it.

Other than because Microsoft says I should, why should I upgrade. What is really so great?????

Posted 9 years ago #
ChrisS
Administrator

The overriding reason to get Windows 10 is the "1" and the "0". That makes it the first binary edition. But, as we all should know by now, first comes binary and then comes SkyNet.

You can read this article about the "features": Windows 10 review: Microsoft goes back to the future and glean that the main two features of Windows 10 are the new browser (now called Edge) and the addition of Cortana (SkyNet Lite). The rest appears to be cosmetic; or perhaps more to the point, cosmetic changes to undo the cosmetic changes made in Windows 8.

Windows 8 was a bust because it was built around features that the vast majority of users had no interest in. Windows 10 is a effort to go back to Windows 7 and simultaneously roll-out a common OS for various devices. Microsoft wants to be "the one OS to rule them all" but it's going to be a colossal failure because Microsoft has repeatedly demonstrated that it has no idea how its legion of customers actually use the product. Windows 10 may end up being the best advertisement that Apple and Linux didn't buy.

The only reason to upgrade is if you absolutely hate Windows 8.1 and haven't been able to roll back to Windows 7. A better choice, though, would be to buy a new PC with Windows 10 because an in-place upgrade will likely be a disaster, and if you're going to have to do a full re-install of your software then your time is probably better spent installing it on new and better hardware.

Posted 9 years ago #
Dragonlair
Member

Thanks, Chris.

Your last paragraph sounds almost word for word what my husband and I have been talking about. We have 7 on our desktop (almost 3 years old) and 8.1 on our laptop (about 4 months old). We have yet to see a Windows OS that we have not been able to work with, including Windows 8.1. In fact, we have ideas on how to make that "All Apps" screen work better for our personal situation (almost 1300 games).

We're thinking very very very seriously of taking that advice -- keep these two machines as they are -- we LIKE 7 and can work with 8.1 and worry about 10 (and it's customizations) with our next machine. Unfortunately, that will probably just be a few years since machines just don't seem to last as long as they used to!

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

Win10 is supposed to feature better integration & cooperation between a discreet [add-on] graphics card(s) & the GPU built into some CPUs. For example In Theory in win7 [but a bit limited in practice] I can use my i7's GPU to accelerate decoding of some types of video, then use the graphics card to accelerate encoding. They are supposed to work together better in 10, though it'll depend of course on later drivers & software.

Win10 also has increased graphics hardware performance, especially gaming, but much more so with AMD graphics hardware -- I haven't heard if it's because AMD aced win10, or if their win7/8 drivers have a problem that win10 fixed. And win10 has the new version of DX, which many gamers are lusting for.

It's **hopeful** that win10 may also offer better support with added features for multiple drives, but then that's been the hope for years as MS worked on the tech. And if you spend all or most of your time in 7, with the release of 10 some [probably few] programs are going to start requiring the upgrade. After its experience trying to kill off XP, MS may also jump on that bandwagon, subtly [or not] making sure stuff isn't available or doesn't work as well [or at all] on anything but 10.

Again in part depending on manufacturers releasing supporting drivers, win10 is supposed to have an improved feature list for laptops & tablets, like better battery management.

A better choice, though, would be to buy a new PC with Windows 10 because an in-place upgrade will likely be a disaster, and if you're going to have to do a full re-install of your software then your time is probably better spent installing it on new and better hardware.

For those that can manage it, the fact that 10 will install & run on a external hard drive I think may be the best test of whether current hardware supports 10 or not. Nothing on the internal drives is touched, so if it does not work as planned/hoped, just wipe the external drive -- if it does work well the external drive contents could be copied to the hard drive, though activation details are still scarce so not sure how that would work. [Allegedly the win10 setup would see you've got a qualifying product installed, not require a key, & activate itself]

MS is allegedly going to keep track of hardware ID (similar to that for activation) so free upgrade customers would never receive a key like when you buy Windows. What they're saying [to regular customers] so far is upgrade, as that will get 10 activated on your device, then reinstall fresh if you want, & their databases will recognize that 10 is licensed on that hardware.

That said, what I did with my wife's rig was back up 7, upgrade 7 to 8/8.1, backup 8, restore 7, restore 8 to a different partition, run EasyBCD for a boot menu. I've read reports already of folks doing similar with 10, so they have their old OS too. Went the upgrade route to avoid having to reinstall all her games. On this rig I did the same as always, installing fresh, adding software as I needed/wanted it -- I collect way too much garbage, thinking at the time it'll be useful, then never running it a 2nd time, so *for me* that's a way of weeding out the junk. I also try to concentrate most small apps & utilities in 4 folders so I can use them in any of my copies of Windows, at most copying the keys over.

The [big?] caveat... Drivers. Win7 drivers will work in many cases -- win8/8.1 drivers will usually work -- but you'll likely have to have the driver setup expanded to individual files you can point to, upgrading devices as needed in Device Mgr. If you have new or fairly current, & *popular* hardware, there's a great chance win10 will handle everything. If not [or just in case], copy the Windows\ System32\ DriverStore\ FileRepository\ folder to a USB stick or similar, *WHILE* you're in the old version of Windows, because it may be restricted if you're not, & point the driver update dialogs in Device Mgr. to that copy.

Posted 9 years ago #
ChrisS
Administrator

That said, what I did with my wife's rig was back up 7, upgrade 7 to 8/8.1, backup 8, restore 7, restore 8 to a different partition, run EasyBCD for a boot menu. I've read reports already of folks doing similar with 10, so they have their old OS too.

I didn't think you could legitimately keep your old OS. My understanding is that your Win 7 license becomes your Win 8 license which then becomes the Win 10 license. I understand that you can have your system drive cloned to a connected drive because you can only boot one of the physical systems at a time. But, what you're describing isn't a backup, it's using the same license for 2 or 3 discrete installations.

From your description it would be a "free upgrade". You get the new OS and keep your old one intact. My understanding, though, is that the upgrade would cost me my existing license plus a new Win7/Win8 license if I wanted to abandon Win 10 after the 30-day grace period (my existing license becomes a license for Win 10 making it unavailable to reinstall the former OS). I'd probably buy a couple of copies of Win 10 SP1 for $20 each next year but I'm leery of the potentially high cost of the free upgrade.

But, I suspect you're right about forcing users to upgrade to Win 10 via upgrades in other software. I think a lot of the impetus behind Win 10 is the market value of Facebook. "One OS to rule them all" really means "one OS to collect your personal information from all your connected devices and sell to interested 3rd parties for a massive profit".

Wouldn't it be worthwhile to advertisers (and others) to know where you are/were at any given moment, what websites you visit, what entertainment you view, whom you correspond with, what the analysis software says you correspond about in your free account, whom you speak to and what the voice recognition software says you talk about? Forget about the targeted ads on Google (you search for "cars" and suddenly get car ads). In the future you'll get ads for cars because your brother-in-law searched for "cars". Targeting everybody was phase 1; targeting individuals who've expressed an interest is phase 2; targeting those who will very likely become interested in the near future is phase 3. Call it the "Department of Pre-Buying".

Posted 9 years ago #
Dragonlair
Member

Much of what you both say is very much on my mind. However, I do not use Facebook or Twitter or any other social media. I am a very private person. Cortana's use of "learning" about you scares me to death! That's just one more thing that can be hacked about you.

Even my "new" software isn't that new (most games have been around for years). About the only thing I've got totally up to date, besides FireFox, is PCStitch 10 and even that is at least 3 years old. M&R Tech just hasn't upgraded it recently. I'm even still putting up with the growing search definition window for Office 2007 because the product still works fine for me and works on both 7 and 8.1.

At this time, I just don't see that I NEED Windows 10. Even if I change my mind, it's not stable yet (note the big patch and the start menu bug). I wouldn't even consider making the change until at least October.

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

RE: "That said, what I did with my wife's rig was back up 7, upgrade 7 to 8/8.1, backup 8, restore 7, restore 8 to a different partition, run EasyBCD for a boot menu."
---
I didn't think you could legitimately keep your old OS. My understanding is that your Win 7 license becomes your Win 8 license which then becomes the Win 10 license.

Regarding me, I bought 3 discreet win8 Pro licenses from MS when they were $39.99 each -- no mention anywhere on my receipts/invoices of it being an upgrade of any sort.

As far as others who don't have separate licenses, I'm not at all sure how it will all work out. I think Windows checks activation when it fires up, but I don't think it contacts the MS servers to do so [that would cause quite the traffic]. When you change something so Windows itself says you need to re-activate, then it'll contact the servers if/when you try to re-activate.

So, folks who kept both versions installed *may* wind up with a rude awakening if/when they need to reactivate, assuming they have a version that can be re-activated [likely most don't]. OTOH the win10 install keeps a copy of the old installation in C:\Windows.old , so you can roll back if you don't like 10 or something goes wrong. MS has to have a way to account for that -- otherwise anyone that rolled back would encounter re-activation notices.

"One OS to rule them all" really means "one OS to collect your personal information from all your connected devices and sell to interested 3rd parties for a massive profit".

Think you're right -- MS looks at F/Book, Google, & Apple etc., & thinks: "How can I become the same?" I also get a big laugh out of the finality of MS PR -- every version of Windows since 3.1 has been *IT*. XP was *IT*, was the future, & then it wasn't anymore. What'll they call their next version? "Oops?" ;)

Wouldn't it be worthwhile to advertisers (and others) to know where you are/were at any given moment, what websites you visit, what entertainment you view, whom you correspond with, what the analysis software says you correspond about in your free account, whom you speak to and what the voice recognition software says you talk about?

Check this out...
"Behavioral Profiling: The password you can't change."
[https://paul.reviews/behavioral-profiling-the-password-you-cant-change/]
[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/keyboard-privacy/aoeboeflhhnobfjkafamelopfeojdohk]

As opposed to traditional authentication which is only interested in what you type, behavioral biometric systems collect & profile how you type too. By actively monitoring how you type, the system is able to build a profile on you.

In order to achieve this, the system monitors how long each key is depressed (dwell time), how long between each key press (gap time), how long to type a known string and hundreds of other metrics.

***

Cortana's use of "learning" about you scares me to death! That's just one more thing that can be hacked about you.

As well it should.

What bothers me personally about biometrics, where they record some aspect of your physical body, is what if the database(s) gets hacked, & the data's changed. You can prove who you are & get control of an account back when it relies on traditional passwords, or some picture or PIN, but what happens when they take away perhaps the definitive means to prove that you are you? Win10 allows the use of your appearance or image, your fingerprint, or your iris as a means of ID. If that sort of thing spread to your bank for example, & someone took over your ID, substituting their own physical data, you effectively no longer exist.

Then again if they replaced your data, presumably they could keep a copy, & where could they insert it? US gov IT is notoriously insecure -- how much would it be worth to someone the gov is looking for &/or tracks to have their data replaced with yours? If they spend thousands now for plastic surgery, how much would they spend for a pain-free alternative?

But that's just idle speculation... [i hope]

At this time, I just don't see that I NEED Windows 10.

And you most certainly won't *NEED* it later... or ever. :)
I'm not a Linux user because the software I need & use only runs in Windows, but the *nix world knew about & had the security enhancements XP was/is missing long before win7 debuted. I don't see a reason XP couldn't have been patched or overhauled, whatever was needed, & the same with Vista & 7. Except MS doesn't make a dime from Service Packs. Now their new hope is their planned ecosystem, rather than planned obsolescence.

But those are dangerous thoughts... If MS can manage it, soon enough public & peer & family pressure will cause most people to switch. I can very clearly imagine a daughter calling up mom, totally exasperated because she can't see the trove of pictures she took of the kids, because grandma refuses to use Windows 10.

Posted 9 years ago #
ChrisS
Administrator

I'm not a Linux user because the software I need & use only runs in Windows

You might check the Wine Application Database (AppDB) to see if your required applications can run under WINE. Of course, with enough wine I really don't care whether the software runs or not...

If you're got time in the next year or so it might be useful to play with Linux and Wine. I've seen speculation that Windows will join the ranks of annual subscription software after Windows 10. That would make sense, given that everything most users need in an OS was in XP. And, with XP, the hardware finally caught up with the software. Before XP, you upgraded because the new hardware vastly improved your computing experience. After XP, the hardware is better but it's not really needed to open a spreadsheet or send an email. So, there's no reason to buy the next version unless you buy a new PC. That impacts sales because it took everybody off of the much touted "3-year hardware lifecycle". Vista is the gift that keeps on giving Bill Gates heartburn.

I'm not a big Linux user but I'm seeing some handwriting on the wall. Or, maybe it's just graffiti. In either case, I'm thinking it would be good to have a viable option.

Posted 9 years ago #
Dragonlair
Member

I got a PM from delenn13 who is having trouble posting herself. If I can stop sneezing long enough, I'll post her message with just slight changes to make the links work better.

Note the first link has a link to a review of Windows 10 itself.

Thanks, Delenn13!

I am in the shadows watching and waiting too. Thinking about doing the Linux mode but for my games. But I have lots of Linux games too because of the Humble Bundles.

When I post in the forum, I have to ask a mod to get my post because no matter what I post..It NEVER shows. So I have basically quit posting.

Anyways..here is an interesting read. Paper,Rock,Shotgun

“We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to.”

Are they going to continue this practice when we HAVE to pay for it???

Plus paying $9.99 A YEAR for Solitaire..what a rip. CNBC

If you want to post any of this..you have my permission.

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

Playing with Windows 10 yesterday... If you watched the old Adam's Family TV series, Lurch was known for a very distinctive grown -- that kinda sums up Friday's experience really well. :(

I hadn't read, hadn't seen the info I expected to be posted soon after 10's launch, so I started to play around myself to see how things work with upgrades, installations, & activation/deactivation. I started out with my Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit VM. I'd read in a few places that if you install 10 fresh, it'll look for activated, qualifying copies of Windows [7/8.1], & automatically activate. At least for the win10 Home version, that appears to be false.

I added a new, empty VHD [Virtual Hard Disk] to the win7 HP 64 VM [Virtual Machine], & attached & booted to the win10 Home 64 bit ISO. During install you're given the opportunity to skip entering a key, so it will install fine, but when you're done it isn't activated.

OK, so scratch that, delete the new VHD with win10 on it, started over installing 10 as an upgrade from the ISO with win7 running. That time it activated as expected, I recorded the key using the utility from Nirsoft, & started experimenting. Using this VHD [with the newly upgraded 10 on it] in a new VM, making sure it used the same MAC address etc., & win10 was not activated. Cloning 10 to a new VHD, using the original VM, win10 was not activated. Note that's only my one time experience, & I was using VMs, so mileage may [or may not] vary.

While it's of course subject to change, unlike 7 you're not given a number to call when Windows deactivates -- in fact Googling on the phone number to activate 10 drew a blank. In a real life situation you could try the old number you can find on-line, but if that didn't work it looks like you'd have to remove your non-working key to get to that dialog & info. Hopefully the tools to do that in 7/8 still work. Microsoft's on-line help pages etc. all start with restoring/resetting your copy of 10 if/when it deactivates.

A side note... I wanted 7 back. Using a copy of the original VHD win7 ran [runs] fine, and it shows it's activated, though I've no idea what would happen if it were to deactivate so that we'd have to call Microsoft. So, with 7 on one VHD, & 10 on a copy of the same VHD, I set about making my 7 VM dual boot.

The 1st step was changing what's called a UUID that VirtualBox uses to identify the VHD -- that was easy using a utility called CloneVDI, which I wanted to run anyway to compact the VHD [meaning to get rid of all the free space making the single VHD file bigger]. BUT, Windows has it's own version of that ID that it uses -- if you have 2 drives with the same ID the 2nd will not boot, nor will it show up in the 1st copy of Windows. You can force that 1st copy of Windows to mount the 2nd drive [in Control Panel -> Admin Tools -> Computer Management], & then it will replace that ID with a new one. Problem is that Windows boot files [the files that are needed to actually start Windows] point to the old ID, so that has to be changed. EasyBCD will do it easily if Windows is set up to boot the old way, but if your system uses UEFI, in my experience you might have some problems [EasyBCD is dated 2012].

Windows has its own tools for working with &/or creating those boot files [BCDEdit & BCDBoot], & it's possible to work with the portion of the registry that stores that info, but the whole thing is really arcane & really a mess, far beyond anything that could be written in a forum post.

How this applies to real hardware -- not VMs... Unless some tricks or work-a-rounds show up on-line in the future, &/or unless Microsoft changes how things work now, it *looks like* the way to upgrade & keep your old OS is to 1st follow Microsoft's recommendation of upgrading your copy of 7/8.1 to Windows 10, to get your hardware entered into their win10 activation databases, then restore a backup of your older copy of Windows, & install 10 fresh to another partition -- that should create the boot menu for you. It *may* work to install 10 fresh to another hard drive, but my initial test in V/Box suggest no.

Hard drives fail & have to be replaced, so I imagine MS will have to make some provision for different [new] drives with their activation stuff, but right now with 10 fresh & people trying to get extra licenses free, I can see them being maybe over restrictive, & can only hope that changes later on.

Now, another problem I've had to deal with is backup software... I bought one of the cheaper win8.1 tablets -- these use pure 32 bit UEFI, & the only thing that will create a boot stick that works seems to be Macrium Reflect. You can create a bootable USB stick with AOMEI Backupper, then copy [replace] the boot.wim file to a Macrium Reflect USB stick, & that will run. Being pure 32 bit UEFI, with a GPT drive having 4 partitions, I had poor luck with Paragon's v. 14 software -- a restored backup [to a VHD] would not run, but using Macrium Reflect v.5 it would.

Fastforward to my playing with 10 in a VM... I wanted to clone the drive to a new VHD. Neither Macrium Reflect 6 nor the latest version of AOMEI Backupper created a clone that would start & run. If win10 was the only copy of Windows on my PC, not having known good backup software would Really worry me. I do intend to test out win10's built-in backup, but wanted to get that info posted today to warn folks.

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

Note the first link has a link to a review of Windows 10 itself.

A couple of things I didn't see, though the info may have been in the links included in the article...

One, is that if you don't get into the Advanced Settings for Windows Update, you'll not notice that by default Microsoft is using P2P to help get their updates out. You're in effect a Microsoft file server -- a role I think most would not want, especially those subject to usage/data caps.

***Maybe*** -- And I'm Just Guessing -- the default P2P behavior may be behind the huge amount of storage space taken up by files/folders in D:\Windows\ SoftwareDistribution\ Download\ , where in my copies of win10 I've seen several GB of drive space taken up. Google & most advice is to leave that folder alone unless absolutely necessary, but, when it get's to that amount, for me personally it's emptied. What's in there? Those are the setup files for the updates you've downloaded.

Two is that Microsoft is very heavily pushing you to have an on-line Microsoft account. As the article says, it's not absolutely necessary, today anyway, but MS is using it with their Insider program to keep track of authorizations &/or activations etc. You sign in to your MS account at the same time you sign into Windows, & to their store, & to the One Drive account that's part of win10, & may be the only way to easily reset passwords & PINs etc.

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

A bit more info...

[I've got a lot of other stuff to do at home, so if anyone wonders, or maybe thinks I must sit playing with 10 all day long, I do other stuff while 10's install &/or updates are running. It actually works out fairly well because I haven't had time to sit at my desk & do what I want/need to do.] ;)

Anyway, I got the 10 pro 64 bit Insider Prev. copy on my hard drive updated to the RTM & activated, so it's all registered with Microsoft. Then I quick formatted that partition -- it needs a fresh install since being updated from the very 1st preview, it's pretty badly messed up.

With that partition empty I dug up the old backup of 8.1 [I'm totally ashamed to say that backup was done back in 2013 -- I never did use it much] & restored it. Booted into 8.1's Safe Mode -- I'd updated hardware more than once -- found I needed a driver for the network adapter, dug out the disc & got that working. Then I fired up 8.1, & to my great surprise it not only ran, but remained activated! Then I ran setup from the win10 64 Pro disc.

It actually didn't take long to get 10 installed & running, but then I hadn't ever installed much of anything to my copy of 8.1 -- the backup was only like 7 GB. I had a Microsoft acct. tied to 8.1, & kept the 8.1 settings when I did the upgrade -- it shouldn't be necessary, but I've read of occasional problems getting an upgrade activated, & those with problems more often than not didn't have it tied to an account, so I wanted to play it safest.

Once I was sure that the new install of 10 was activated, I booted into 7 & formatted the partition again, then booted to the installation DVD & installed 10 pro 64 fresh to the same partition. It asked for a key, which I skipped, & after setting it up with the same Microsoft acct. during the last stages of installation, 10 started up & showed it was activated.

As far as the Microsoft account goes, forgot I even set it up when I 1st installed 8 -- shows just how much I used it. It's based on my default throw-away spam account actually, so I'm not too worried about privacy yet -- there's no real details on me associated with that acct. anywhere AFAIK -- & when I go about setting up that copy of 10 it'll be with another, local user acct. that's not tied to anything.

I did try upgrading a win7 trial, & that wouldn't work. I tried entering the win8/8.1 key, & that wouldn't work either. I tried upgrading 8.1 after booting from the DVD, & it told me to shut down & upgrade while running 8.1. I did grab the key from this new install, again using the Nirsoft app, finding that it was identical to the key I got from my earlier upgrade based on my win7 HP 64 VM, as well as my Insider copy of win10 Pro 64 installed to a VM. It seems that if you go the free upgrade or Insider routes, the key means nothing. I signed into the separate Microsoft accounts to see if anything reflected my having 2 copies of 10 pro 64 activated on this PC [the insider & the 8.1 upgraded copy] -- the accounts still showed the separate devices, & I assume [hope] separate copies. The PC Name that Windows setup generates was identical for both VMs.

That's pretty much all my experience so far with upgrading 10 at any rate... No shortcuts to an activated install unless you buy a key it seems -- you have to do the upgrade while running a activated copy of 7-8.1. Activation status seems completely stored & handled on Microsoft's servers -- they *say* based solely on a unique hardware ID calculated from the hardware you're using, but reports suggest a Microsoft acct. helps.

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

A rather inelegant experience upgrading 8.1 -> 10 on my tablet... from what I can tell Microsoft keeps quite a bit of info on your Windows install & activation, beyond what I had imagined. Briefly, the story goes like this...

I wanted to make sure the tablet would run 10 without problems, particularly since it uses a lot of one-off drivers that will never be updated from their win8.1 versions. So I got 10 running on a USB HDD attached to the tablet -- not a big deal. When I tried upgrading to a new preview build, got a message that 10 on a USB drive could not be upgraded. So be it. I had done the original 8.1 -> 10 upgrade in a VM I created using a restored disk backup from the tablet, so I tried upgrading that, & got the same USB message -- hmmmm, this was definitely not a USB drive.

Then I tried updating the tablet itself this morning, & got the same message! Now I've never really added any software to the tablet [other than F/Fox really], as I bought it for 10 on sale, & was being patient, so nothing about its configuration had changed from day one. I mention that because after resetting the tablet to its out-of-box condition, setting it up with another MS acct., the upgrade worked just fine. I have to assume it was the account info causing the problem, as I doubt very much F/Fox had anything to do with it. ;)

Posted 9 years ago #
BentlyTCow
Member

Might be useful to those who take the plunge, or who just want to dip their toe:

http://www.techsupportalert.com/content/how-get-your-previous-system-back-after-you-have-upgraded-windows-10.htm

Posted 9 years ago #
Mavadelo
Member

No way I want my previous windows hate point none back
I am very happy with 10, gone is that ugly Metro interface, the taskbar, though not optimal yet is a big improvement over what that previous disaster had to offer. My games run better, my desktop looks crisper. I did an instant upgrade, no "clean install" nonsense so basically I installed on an allready cluttered and basically slow system. Well cluttered as it still is, slow is not a problem anymore.

No there is no need for additonal AntiVirus and firewall because windows defender is build in (which it was in 8 as well btw) and it is doing a fine job, as does the firewall.

So far I am a very happy camper, lost no programs, no reinstalls whatsoever, only a few updates for Win10 drivers like my video drivers and sound drivers

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

A quick caution for those thinking about 10 on a laptop running AMD graphics, or if you have an older, particularly less expensive AMD graphics card -- I've been reading some problem reports. The latest AMD driver does not support 6xxx series cards & earlier, & will not install. The drivers that 10 will install during setup may not work either -- even though earlier versions that came with the Insider preview did. There's also some problem reports with laptops with dual graphics -- a regular GPU + whatever's built into the CPU -- it may not switch to using the full GPU the way it did in 8.1.

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

Might be useful to those who take the plunge, or who just want to dip their toe:

FWIW, do a complete disk image backup anyway -- it's not only a sure fire way of restoring your system, but faster.

If you've got a Windows tablet or other device with a low amount of disk space, win8.1 may have been installed using Wimboot. Wimboot uses the actual recovery image [in a Recovery partition] rather than many Windows system files -- what you see in C:\Windows is actually a link to the file in the recovery image. In these cases rolling back is a disaster, requiring a fresh Windows install. How do you tell? The properties for the Windows folder will show a lower total size, e.g. ~5-8 rather than 10 or more GB.

Microsoft recommends Windows PCs, laptops, & tablets have at least 4 partitions using a GPT format hard drive. The 1st partition holds the boot files, the 2nd has special Microsoft files, the 3rd is where Windows lives, & the 4th is the Recovery partition. The Recovery partition is supposed to hold the image necessary to reset or restore the device to its out-of-box condition. It is not installed or set up when you install Windows, but is put there by the manufacturer.

It seems unclear what happens to that recovery partition when you upgrade to 10. The partition remains, but the contents [& the partition itself] aren't normally visible. AFAIK the only reliable method of looking at the 1st & Recovery partitions is to assign them drive letters so they show up in Windows Explorer, which may have to be done using Windows' command line app, DiskPart -- I've had partition apps sometimes work for this, but often they will not. Needless to say be VERY careful with DiskPart, as it has few if any safeguards & is rather arcane to use. Partition Guru may be able to let you easily see what's on those partitions, but I've not used it enough to gauge reliability.

What does that have to do with Rolling Back the OS? If the contents of the Recovery partition were altered, rolling back will not un-alter them, so you won't have exactly what you had beforehand. OTOH if you want to get rid of the leftovers, an old Recovery partition may be taking up 5 or more GB of disk space, & the only way to get rid of it is with a partition app. Also, don't be surprised if you have 2 Recovery Partitions after upgrading to 10 -- Windows setup may add an additional one, though it will not contain a complete image.

In Windows 10 the Disk Clean Up app will get rid of most of the old files, plus those used to install 10 -- the easiest way to find it is in Windows Explorer, right clicking a drive & selecting properties -- it's on the 1st tab. It will not empty Windows\Temp folder, & it will not do anything with drivers if they're stored in the C:\Recovery folder. The amount of old files & the space they take up varies of course, depending on what you had installed beforehand -- the Windows.old folder also includes a copy of the Program Files folder(s). It also seems to vary depending on how much disk space you have available -- I've seen that amount double on win10 installs with plenty of disk space, compared to an identical installation on a partition with only 32 GB.

Finally, if you use the Microsoft win10 download app [MediaCreationTool] to create a setup USB stick or ISO, it leaves a lot of leftovers on the hard drive like its win8/8.1 ancestors.

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

"I did an instant upgrade, no "clean install" nonsense so basically I installed on an allready cluttered and basically slow system."

You can get rid of some clutter by running Disk Clean Up. Unless you buy a license, or run the Insider Preview, there is no clean install -- at least at 1st until you get your hardware registered with Microsoft for the free license to win10. At that point you can wipe the disk/partition & install fresh if you like. Depending on how *cluttered* Windows is, a fresh install can help, or even be necessary.

There are 2 ways to install [other than the Insider Previews] -- through Windows Update [you can find directions on-line to force it to show up if it isn't listed], or using the MediaCreationTool. You get the same result either way, & the time to upgrade or install is the same, though with the tool you can have a setup disc or USB stick. That's an advantage if you ever have to install fresh of course, but it also prevents you from having to download a few GB if something goes wrong & you have to start over.

"No there is no need for additonal AntiVirus and firewall because windows defender is build in (which it was in 8 as well btw) and it is doing a fine job, as does the firewall."

Windows firewall is harder to control or configure, but you can find apps for that. The more effective a firewall is, the more intrusive it becomes, & the more work it entails -- at their default settings, which tend to maximize usability, many 3rd party firewalls are hardly much better. There simply is no good way to automate the selection of which software can connect, so you either risk letting too much through, or upsetting the customer who doesn't want to decide for themselves. As far as blocking threats from outside your network, most people I think use a gateway with a NAT, so it's not as big an issue [providing the user doesn't set a bunch of pass-through rules].

Security Essentials, which morphed into Windows Defender, aces the tests for usability at the expense of protection. OTOH it's performance could be a lot better -- i.e. the amount it slows you down -- and it's minimalist controls can make it a PITA sometimes. With 10, WD learned a new trick -- if your 3rd party security software is expired, it'll reactivate itself. In what I assume is an offshoot of that, it can sometimes in my experience be a PITA to get WD to shut off when your 3rd party software is working properly. Here's a rating on WD from May & June with 8.1 [before 10 RTM].
[https://www.av-test.org/en/antivirus/home-windows/windows-8/june-2015/microsoft-windows-defender-4.7-152347/]

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

Just what does Windows 10 REALLY offer?

At the moment no GOTDs!

Posted 9 years ago #
Mavadelo
Member

@Mikiem2 heheh no worries I do my system maintenance but there is always things slwoing down your system like background programs you do need and such. There a quiet some programs I use often enough to warrant them running in background, I do tend to fill up my temps rather quickly, such things :)

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

At least for now, the Home version of Windows 10 also forces any App store app updates as well.

[http://winsupersite.com/windows-10/not-just-os-updates-app-updates-also-mandatory-windows-10-home-edition]

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

Techspot.com did a comparison review, pitting win7, win8.1, & win10 against each other, in an article featuring several benchmarks done on the same hardware, using each of the 3 Windows versions. Unfortunately there is no clear winner -- each version won in different tests -- so it depends on what's important to you to decide which version would be the best for you to run.

I do think it's important to note the hardware the Techspot author used... If you're running an AMD CPU, 10 *might* be faster in some cases with some software &/or games -- 10 is supposed to be better at utilizing more cores. My understanding is that Intel CPUs win out for gaming because games often don't use multiple cores, but rely in individual core performance, where Intel has the edge. Those gaming with AMD graphics hardware tend to be thrilled with 10, reporting pretty decent gains, whereas the author used Nvidia graphics.

[http://www.techspot.com/review/1042-windows-10-vs-windows-8-vs-windows-7/]

Posted 9 years ago #
mikiem2
Moderator

Some people just don't like the new Edge browser in 10, & for some things it apparently just does not work, at least yet. The familiar Internet Explorer is still there, but you have to find it 1st -- here's an article on how to do that.

[http://www.windowscentral.com/how-find-internet-explorer-windows-10-if-you-really-need-it]

Posted 9 years ago #

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