I've read a ton of good advice here, but to sumnmarize I want to say you will ALWAYS get the best results from slides and negs when using a dedicated film scanner. A flatbed scanner with film holder is a 2nd-best option, but a film scanner is your #1 choice.
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video
goodgotd
Member
Hey, a pro to ask!
(the important question is at the end)
Up front, I simply cannot afford a dedicated negative scanner.
Impossible, out of the question, and reduced quality of results can't add money I haven't got. Do or die with the tools at hand or DIY construction.
For an example, see the pix of
my homebrew traverse head to see what lengths I'll go to.
(works rather well, too)
ok, let me check my assumptions first. point out mistakes, please.
35mm film, I assume the exposed area is 35mm wide and 26.5mm high assuming 4:3 aspect ratio. 1.38" x 1.034"
I have (not connected at the moment) a plustek opticpro UT12 flatbed scanner with a transparency holder [36mm x 24mm, which makes me wonder about the 35mmx26.5mm assumption] in the lid. 600x1200 dpi optical resolution, USB 1.1.
If the 1200 is in one direction, and using 36mm x 24mm, that gives a 1701x566 pixel scan, or the other way it's 1134x850, which seems more reasonable a ratio. But I don't know for sure.
With improvised back lighting and unrefined (with more light and a holder I *should* be able to get a bit closer, even a centimeter should be a big change) auto focus my M517 has beaten the 600dpi resolution directly.
A bit under the 1200 for sure, as that slide is 38mm [1.5"] across the window- 724dpi in both directions for the 1084 pixel crop. so far.
The 'normal' example slides I have are framed at 35mm x 24mm. haven't dug out a negative yet.
The big problem is, I have a *lot* of negatives, and the scanning time on that small a target is a very, very small percentage of the time it takes to cycle the scanner- each and every frame.
calling it a 30 second cycle time would be rather optimistic. 45 seconds would be more realistic.
Once set up my camera can cycle continuously at under 8 seconds, closer to 5 without the flash, including writing to the SD card.
Of the options I have, the camera wins hands down on slides as it stands. 5:1 conversion speed advantage minimum, I've already beat 600 dpi, and if I can raise the resolution even near 1200 the scanner loses all advantage, period. Clap shot for choice.
Even counting having to move/change the negative strip. Which isn't easy in the scanner for true and certain.
My remaining question is color balance for negatives.
Is there a neutral balance artificial light source [or one that can be compensated for in post-processing *before* I invert the colors], or would it be better to build a hood and use direct sunlight to illuminate the negatives?
Or a suggested light source I can counter-balance in the camera. for example florescent lighting and tungsten preset?
Even a wild guess I can refine would be a help, since I have the finished photos to compare with the captured slides so I can fine-tune if need be, but the inverse-color double correction theory has me confused.
HelenOster
Member
Dear copmom
Thanks for the pointer to Adorama; we always appreciate when happy consumers recomend us to others out there.
Whilst I'm not technical, if you have any concerns, queries or difficulties with an Adorama order - whatever it may be - please don't hesitate to contact me: helen.oster@adoramacamera.com
Sincerelty
Helen Oster
Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador
An unmounted slide and a 35mm neg are both 24x36. Since slide mounts vary, there's no one measurement that can be guaranteed to the millimeter.
It doesn't matter what light source you use as long as it's steady and unvarying and reliable. Daylight streaming in through your living room window won't be the same at 2:00pm as it was a 10:00am. A single strobe bounced off a white wall would be one option.
Depending on the camera you're using, something like this:
General Brand Zoom Slide Duplicator 1:2.5 (Requires T-Mount)
<http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/82193-REG/>
for an SLR or this:
General Brand Digital Slide Duplicator
<http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/464076-REG/>
for any camera with a filter thread
would be useful.
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video
might be useful.
goodgotd
Member
I thank you quite sincerely, henryp.
The 38x38 slides are 1961 Pana-Vue, the others have no date but are duplicate slides from frank holmes labs, and one of them is 38x28mm.
you've cleared up the situation admirably, including a long-running head-scratcher that should have been blindingly obvious if I'd been paying attention. (all those 4 x 6 prints...)
At long last I know why 3:2 aspect ratio is on the list of common AR's.
I feel a right idiot, though now I'm wondering why it's called 35mm film...
Oh. lemme guess. That's how far it *advances* for each shot, to avoid damaging adjacent frames with light bleeding through the 'seals'. a 4.5mm 'safe zone' on each side of a frame.
D'oh! No, that isn't right- the 36mm dimension of the exposure window is in the direction of film advance, so the film (looked at from a camera orientation) is 35mm 'high' of which 26mm is used. that makes sense.
I wish I had the option to use either one of those adapters, but the digital brownie I have is the 2005 Hewlett-Packard PhotoSmart M517 a friend sent me (very much a no-attachment point and shoot. But it does have a nice macro mode.) as an upgrade for the 1998 HP C200 I've tried to wear out being a prosthetic memory.
Unsuccessfully. It's still dead reliable after 37 thousand photos and being dropped dozens of times. needs cleaned, probably, but the negative comments about the 'cheap plastic case' seem unfounded.
Am I understanding correctly that a xenon strobe might be a neutral light source bounced off, say, a white card? (no white walls)
I have some separate strobes I could possibly synch with the shutter on the camera and use a different light source for focusing pre-shot.
Hmmm. a light tight hood, fire the HP's flash, with an optical detector triggering the external on the second strobe, perhaps?
I suppose that would depend on whether the camera does white balance during focus or at shutter release. Bet HP would answer 'what? No clue!' if I asked.
But consistent I can certainly manage.
perhaps a battery of 'white' (blue with phosphor) LED's with some red and green variable intensity to true the balance behind a white diffuser.
Ok, lots of red and green since the ones I have are old low-output ones, while the whites are newer and brighter. I have plenty.
or a combined set of florescent and incandescent- once warmed up that should be stable, and the incandescent I can tweak. might make a good portable general illumination unit for other uses.
I did find out about the variability of sunlight in an article- I think it was on your site.
Love to get one of your good tripods with a good traverse turntable, but this widget once set level is amazingly single-plane. I'm considering a 90 degree adapter to get the extra 33% FOV into my panoramas, 2576 pixels instead of 1952, or ~48 degrees rather than the current ~36 degrees at minimum zoom.
I'll pass the info on to the pal who sent this cam to me- he has a Minolta Dimage Z-1, the 1.6 inch supermacro it has I envy.
Thanks again-
Bob
copmom
Member
Goody.. I think in your next life you're going to be a professional photographer / developer / photo artist!!!! I can see your mind going clickety, click!!
Helen, thanks for your offer!
Henry, I bookmarked your site.
I should have taken some pictures today of all the snow coming down, and to think that last week it was in the high 70's and spring was in the air!
goodgotd
Member
That's what a good JOAT does.
[whirr]
New tools/job/direction, soak it up, apply principles from elsewhat, find where to get the details that don't apply cross-discipline or you never grokked, keep pushing the envelope.
Never had the tools to get into photography, but related fields I got lots of the background.
optics, color, light, angles, ratios- learned bits from every task from machining, surveying, designing disco lighting to repairing mismounted rifle scopes in gunsmithing and repairing TV's.
goodgotd
Member
Allllll righty now. here comes a boot to the head, boys and girls-
I'll start by telling you all something you probably already know- 5 megapixel slide "scanners" for the 'standard' 36mm x 24mm format 35mm slides are available for about a hundred dollars, and a fairly decent Canon is less than 200 simolians- though the good ones are still a grand and up.
but what do you do when handed slides that the film area is just 20mm wide and 23mm high?
that's what, half of a standard slide's footprint?
all the inexpensive slide scanners are fixed-focus, which I would guess also means fixed field of view. oof. 5 mp scanner, heading for the down side of 2.5 mp out?
BTW, in the 70-200 clam range are 'slide copiers' that fit/adapt to most digicams that can use an accessory lens adapter of one sort or another (the sony dsc-w55, canon a570 and a720, lots of others) and copy slides- probably faster than the scanners.
(urls on request)
These include a built-in lens to (nearly- they suggest full width, but the aspect ratio leaves a gap top and bottom) full-frame a standard 35mm slide.
however, itty-bitty slides are going to be itty-bitty megapixels, right?
I have some ideas, but suggestions would be appreciated.
goodgotd
Member
ok, more than ideas, I've been prototyping too- but still.
gary waited until I'd told him 'sure, I can do your slides' before he let on what size they were.
only a few hundred, but then I have a pile of negatives. found more info on correcting negative colors, too.
maizeydaze
Member
Hi Goody!
I don't know the answer to your question about measuring lens distance and size on a target, but maybe someone at one of the photographic forums below can help.
http://forum.shutterbug.com/forum/ubbthreads.php
goodgotd
Member
long time no chat, maizey!
I'll take a look- my prototyping has gone better than I expected, by guesses, luck and persistence- but I'd like to add some science to go for other goals on the cheap.
I've managed to push my slide slammer mk IV mod C just past 2800 pixels per inch with only slight negative barrel distortion with the camera at 2.5x zoom- resulting in a 5.67 megapixel 20mm x 23mm capture from the 1960 vacation bears 2 slide. (38mm x 38mm window, horrible color, huh?)
and that's using a 13w compact florescent desk lamp and a crude light deflection box to backlight the slide.
mk I & II were simple plastic tubes, the mk III used the same lens but had really bad negative barrel distortion. (pincushion?)
mod D will have a mounting tube with the lock-on lugs pointing the right way- oops.
took apart the lens from an old video camera with a fried vidicon tube and found one concave-convex lens that, remounted, seems to work fairly well.
I can hardly wait to get my hands on some slides with full-spectrum colors to get a holder built and get them captured for post-processing.
Whiterabbit-uk
Games Guru
All this talk of digitizing slides has re-interested me in converting all my slide collection. I used to carry around two cameras when was young (thanks to my grandfather who used to swear by slide film as opposed to the traditionalo negative film. So I have quite a lot, varying from the 64iso to 400iso varieties. I've also got my wifes parents collection which unfortunately were stored in the loft and were sunbject to a bird mite infection which has left weird looking blemishes on virtually all of their many hundreds of slides.
Thankfully, photoshops has really saved my bacom with respect to getting rid of the blemishes and overall improving the color balance of most of the slides. Many were taken in the 1960's, so you can imagine how faded the colors are. I've found the 64asa slides have held their color the best.
I use an epson photo RX500 for scanning, which I've had for about four years and has been well worth the money I paid for it. Though you can only scan a maximum of four slides at a time.
I'm really impressed with your inventiveness goodgotd. You remind me of my grandfather who used to make his own equipment for copying slides and other photo editing. He used to work with a guy caled Sam Hannah who became famous in the UK for his color archives of 'ye olde' crafts such as broom making and charcole making, and even he dads army during the war. They had a workshop for editing the films they worked on so he had the equipment to hand to jury rig a converter.
maizeydaze
Member
Goody, I too am impressed with your do-it-yourself skills! I have all but given up on my apparatus for copying slides. It's still setting in the basement the same as the day that I took the pictures of it to post here. LOL I can never seem to finish anything that I start. Remember that I have loads of lenses and stuff. Let me know if there is anything that you need. I may have it. I've got to get rid of some of this junk! I'm sure the links to my inventory are still here. I think they are in this thread.
copmom
Member
Goody.. I can imagine what your "laboratory" looks like with all your inventions and creations! I'm glad you brought this subject up because (as you will recall), I purposely bought the HP printer that I got because it did negatives (4 at a time). Never even got around to trying that out yet! Too many irons in the fire I guess. So thanks for reminding me!
goodgotd
Member
That's a high compliment indeed, Whiterabbit. mostly it's the result of refusing to admit 'it can't be done', plus a monster junkpile. :)
thanks, Maizey, I kind of went sideways after looking at some of the alternatives I ran into just recently.
I'm not sure what might turn out useful, but just the thought of trying stuff out makes me drool.
but don't you have an A570? there are adapter tubes to 52mm standard threads available for it, under 10 bucks delivered- (the A720's tubes are a bit higher, and come in 52mm or 58mm) and step-up and step-down rings would let you try out some of the lenses and filters yourself.
copmom, just imagine a trailer park hit by a tornado, and you'll be close- I'll try to get the link posted to the info on correcting the orange cast in negatives before flipping the colors. and ditto on too many irons in the fire.
here's a couple of sweet-looking freebies I spotted:
Neat Image is a filter designed to reduce visible noise and grain in photographic images produced by digital cameras and scanners. Neat Image is indispensable in low-light (indoors, night, astro) and high-speed (sport, action) photography. It is a tool for both professional photographers and digital image processing enthusiasts.
the 'demo' is actually a freeware with pretty much all of the paid version's features save tiff and batch processing in standalone mode.
Lens Correction is a free plugin (photoshop/irfanview/etc) that corrects barrel and pincushion distortions that many zoom camera lenses produce. Just move the sliders to the left to correct barrel distortion, and to the right to correct pincushion .
goodgotd
Member
maizey- the link http://s147.photobucket.com/albums/r300/maizeydaze/CamerasEquipment/?albumview=slideshow is locked as private now.
a simple tube & holder (http://users.iafrica.com/m/mc/mcollett/brsd/) will get about 1380 pixels per inch at 2.2 cm, (36mmx24mm = 1944x1296 with no extra optics, using the bumbers from http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canona570is/page5.asp) and that plugin should let you correct the barrel distortion easily.
maizeydaze
Member
Goody, try these links now.
http://s147.photobucket.com/albums/r300/maizeydaze/Cameras/
http://s147.photobucket.com/albums/r300/maizeydaze/CamerasEquipment/
goodgotd
Member
at least 2 stereo cameras- never had one, but seen and was awed by them a time or 3, seriously cool collection!
hehe- the take-a-shot sideways adapters haven't gone out of style! Pro Voyeur Spy Lens, I had to laugh when I saw it.
these days I use ebay as just one of the 'wish books' when searching, then check elsewhere to see if there's a better place.
like those Sima SVR Quick-Release adapters- I paid a buck-and-a-dime more each- and still saved 3 bucks due to cheaper shipping on 3 of them.
a little work building a spacer and the cheap tripod (I broke the stock qr plate, what a dummy) didn't need the sima base bolted on to use the sima qr plate in it's clamp, leaving me a spare sima base to use when I get my spheric mount built. And keeping the small tripod light and handy- so that paid for half the cost not getting another tripod.
(like the cheap solution I found when one of the rubber feet came off? 50 for a buck...)
in the meantime, the smaller size of the sima plate (1-1/4 square, low profile) lets me leave it on the cameras (on the canon front and bottom) without getting in the way.
even better, removing the camcorder indexing pin leaves a perfectly usable tripod socket on the bottom so desktop tripods, string stabilizers, etc. screw right in. talk about standardizing connection methods!
note I've been using standard prescription bottles for prototyping the slide stuff rather than a standard lens adapter tube- just me and my dremel, and the bottles come free. :) for actual lenses, an aluminum tube would be smart- but for this I don't wince if I mess one (well, a dozen or so) up, just grab another.
Whiterabbit-uk
Games Guru
Thank you for the plug in's goodgotd.
goodgotd
Member
no problem, I have at least 1 camera that they don't have a noise profile on at neat image, so I'm going to try for a free license. what I find handiest is that one can make a noise profile for your own individual camera, if you want better results than a general camera model profile.
I've noticed in comparing lab-class reviews there's more variation between the cameras tested at each place than I expected.
in the freeware the standalone mode is more functional, plugin mode limits you to about 1k square if I recall.
there are spendy lens correction plugins that claim to remove chromatic aberration too (purple fringing, etc.), but free barrel correction is great.
goodgotd
Member
maizey, yer gonna bust a gut laughing. remember this camera?
I got my first sample slides in, and guess what probably took them?
here's a quick first shot- I gotta build a holder...
rotated level and cropped- I calculate almost exactly 5 megapixels... it's a start. my ruler says 21mm x 24mm.
goodgotd
Member
the chromatic aberration's gonna be a bear, have to see what I can tweak as I work for more resolution. hmmm.
looking around, there seem to be a couple of free methods to correct lateral CA. hmmm.
I just checked out the dead space around that image, and if I can push to near full-frame, 6.7 mp isn't out of reach. cool.
larger format slides should be a clap shot.
goodgotd
Member
huh- here's the result with direct macro (no extra lens) and barrel-corrected using that plugin and xnview.
I haven't measured yet if that's as close as I can get, either.
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