We need to really let the site know that we are NOT pleased with this new wrapper. It has now made it impossible for us average, non-geek users to not be able to download games or other software to try and use!
Are they trying to make it for geek-type use only
New "Wrapper" On Games
(21 posts) (9 voices)-
I haven't tried the new wrapper yet as I either have or am not interested in either game this weekend.
However, even though I am somewhat of a geek, I REFUSE to go to the extent of booting in safe-mode with networking to be able to install a game or any product. If someone wants me to try or purchase their product, it is their responsibility to make my install as easy as possible. I am not going out of my way to fight through their paranoia.
There is always a similar product that would be glad to have my business!
Posted 12 years ago # -
mikiem2
ModeratorMaybe another take on it, or maybe just phrasing it another way? :)
The choice of registration/activation limitations is up to the developers... in the *old* days several included requirements like signing up at their site, & many keyed activation both to hardware & date. Others were more generous, letting you install the app or game whenever you wanted, wherever you wanted.
So far that doesn't seemed to have changed much if at all, with GOTD versions I've checked so far being identical to the trial versions readily available on the developer's site. Maybe GOTD should be more open about it, using their wrapper just when the developer requires it, but maybe that would also put more heat on those developers because they obviously required the wrapper? I don't know.
I assume the GOTD crew is still playing with, working with the new wrapper, since as with the download today, the new wrapper adds ~7 MB rather than the 2 MB or so with the old version... that's likely costing them a bit of $, so I'd guess [hope] that they're trying to get it smaller. Maybe if everything's not cast yet in stone they'll listen to users proposing alternatives?
Posted 12 years ago # -
Whiterabbit-uk
Games GuruIt was confrmed that installing the game in Safe mode with networking overcame the problem some were having installing the game giveaways this last weekend due to the new wrapper. Once the game was installed, you can then restart the computer in normal mode and the game is accessible.
I have the utmost regard for the game giveaways team when it comes to checking all games given away for malware. They stand to lose a lot if any malware was found in any game. a six year record of clean downloads is testament to how safe game giveaways are.
I know Mikiem said that it wasn't advisable to install anything in safe mode if you are using vista, but this shouldn't stop others that are using XP or Win 7 to finally get over the problem. :)
Posted 12 years ago # -
I know Mikiem said that it wasn't advisable to install anything in safe mode if you are using vista, but this shouldn't stop others that are using XP or Win 7 to finally get over the problem. :)
I am running Vista32 Ultimate SP2.
I still say that no user should have to reboot special, install a product, and then boot normal for ANY product. If someone wants you to use their site - they they should accommodate YOU. You should never have to accommodate them. You're the customer and the customer is always right!
Posted 12 years ago # -
ChrisS
AdministratorThere is a conflict with the new wrapper:
- GAOTD won't knowingly release a giveaway with malware, spyware or viruses for the reasons WR mentions.
- Installing programs in safe mode or after suspending your monitoring programs is unsafe computing.You are the greatest threat to your PC's security. If you practice unsafe computing then you're much more likely to invite malicious programs into your computer. Circumventing your security software for a freebie from GAOTD may be penny wise but it encourages very bad habits that will ultimately be pound foolish. Even ignoring the target rich environment that the GAOTD community represents for hackers looking for a way into your system, what happens when you visit another site that tells you to "suspend your anti-virus program before installing"? Do you think, "no way am I going to do that!". Or, do you think, "I do that all the time on GAOTD"? You are the greatest threat to your PC.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Whiterabbit-uk
Games GuruHi Chris, you are absolutely right in what you say and if you have any reservations about a piece of software then installing in Safe Mode would be foolish. Maybe I should have included a warning about the dangers of bypassing security, but at the time I didn't think to.; for that I apologise.
That said I've said countless times, the giveaway team throughly check the games and applications they are offering for free using several different anti malware programs; so users can be assured that what they are installing is a safe program. The giveaway team have a lot to lose if they did not ensure software was safe.
What I was trying to suggest was for the benefit of those community members having problems with being able to install the giveaway software due to the new wrapper, yet who really wanted the game. The method outlined does enable a user to install the game (or software from the giveaway site), so as far as I'm concerned I did my job as a moderator (apart from not including a warning)
What I wasn't suggesting was that users go into safe mode everytime they run into problems installing software from every Tom Dick & Harry site offering free software; that could very well be disasterous for the reasons you outline, but we are talking giveawayoftheday, a site that has always offered a safe environment with safe downloads.
I appreciate your post though as it will give users the warning that I stupidly ommited from my post. Thanks.
With respect to not having to do go through hoops to install software be it an application or a game; If I was purchasing the software I agree with you in that I would expect to get an installer and have no problems installing the software; however, I think the giveaway software is a slightly different situation in that we are getting it for free. Still, if you aren't happy with the fix then that's your perogative. Thanks for your thoughs. As always they are appreciated. :)
Posted 12 years ago # -
mikiem2
ModeratorNot making light of any problems some folks are having, & not making *any* judgement on whether it's worth it or not -- as always that's your decision. :)
I install most everything 1st to a VM -- I avoid loads of problems down the road, & sometimes I can partly regain that time spent by skipping install in my regular Windows, copy/pasting files/folders. Using a VM might also be a [usually] convenient alternative to avoid problems with the new GOTD wrapper. You have the initial VM setup/creation, but once that's done it's faster to fire that VM up than it is to reboot into Safe Mode. The biggest delay I've found is copy/pasting a base copy of the virtual disk containing the VM on top of the one where I've just installed 1/2 dozen or so apps... later today I'll update a VM, close it, copy the virtual disk to another drive/partition for my base copy, use the VM for testing, & later restore it by copy/pasting that copy I made -- my basic VMs take up from 8-11 GB each, so I'll start the copy/paste & go make a cup of tea.
Real world examples from this past weekend...
I monitor everything, but please consider that irrelevant as possible, taking whatever you find that might be useful... I ran setup from the regular trial for a GOTD app, then activated it the same way as if it were the GOTD version. Then I installed the GOTD version over it to see if anything changed. Activation worked, nothing changed with the GOTD install -- in that case I couldn't/can't see a reason not to use the trial download with whatever activation method from GOTD, making any wrapper problems &/or delays moot. The same exact copy of Fishdom OTOH was not was not available as a trial, but the GOTD wrapper worked/works fine in my minimal VM with Security Essentials installed. As with most of the games appearing on GOTD, once everything was unpacked into the game's folder, you can copy that folder wherever you like, including to your regular hard drive. Sometimes a GOTD app/game install & activation are more involved, but that's the exception to the rule -- the Kingsoft spreadsheet app was a decent example, but that too transferred to my regular Windows install [just had more than a single folder to copy].Again, if that sort of thing is worth it to you or not is up to you.
My perspective is that developers write apps/games to work in Windows, not for the most part to work with other software, mostly they focus on the app &/or game working rather than whatever side effects installation might cause, they usually don't worry overmuch about removal, & for various reasons [e.g. tools to make writing code faster/easier] often extra files &/or registry entries are included. That's not complaint really -- such is life. When it comes to anything on GOTD it's no more hassle monitoring it in a VM than anything else, any other apps, & I monitor & test most everything before trusting it on my regular Windows installs. Often an app's just not worth having, but you don't always know that before you try it. It's unfortunately common for an app's install to take over file name associations -- it's unfortunately common for an app's install to add C/C++ runtimes in Windows\WinSxS -- it's unfortunately common for an app's installer to have a large impact on the registry, where the app itself may be almost portable -- some app installs insist on running added setup programs for DX, or WinMedia... often I can & do avoid all or most of that by installing to a VM, then copying the app itself.If anyone's interested the VirtualBox VM host is free, & there's an unofficial launcher available so it works portably. The win8 prev. &/or win7 trials &/or a copy of XP [if you've got a license you no longer use] work well for your VMs that will run inside of V/Box.
Posted 12 years ago # -
goodgotd
Memberit'll take the offer of a *really* impressive app to get me to install another GOTD offer again, unless themida goes away. I'll keep reading the comments for alternates, but trying the software?
even with Outpost turned off, setup.exe gets deleted before I can run it. and from what I've read, that's sensible. sure, GOTD has a great record on malware, etc., but all it takes is one oops... and with themida we the users cannot tell.
I don't have the hardware or the will to use VM's, and a safe mode install is insane, not a workaround.
It's been nice to know ya, got to try a lotta software from bad to great- but this wrapper change goes way too far for me to accept.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Whiterabbit-uk
Games GuruHi goodgotd, not seen you around in a while. :) Lets hope the giveaway team have a change of heart over the new wrapper. It does seem that a lot of community members will leave the project if it's not reversed. It's a pity more of the silent majority don't voice their opinion as a consolidated effort from the community may help a change of mind. From my calculations (via the game giveaway site), only 0.1% of those downloading software from here bother to comment, but the game side only accounts for about 10% of downloads.
Absolutely true Mikiem, we all make our own decisions as to whether we install software, still, it's always nice to get different perspectives on what others feel. I'm sure we've all overlooked something over the years we've been computing; for example using a VM is definitely a good idea especially when you can get a basic one for free. It would certainly cover the remote possibility of a malware creeping through the giveaway teams anti-malware testing.
Posted 12 years ago # -
ChrisS
AdministratorI think it would benefit GAOTD if they'd discuss the magnitude of the problem. Obviously the new wrapper is intended to prevent cracking the installation but none of us know how big the problem is, except that the declining quality of giveaways (imo) points to a very large problem. No developer who's expecting to giveaway 100,000 licenses will be pleased to find that 10,000,000 licenses are in circulation because of piracy and most would probably opt to stick with their trial versions. GAOTD needs to stop the thieves or the project will die but forcing legitimate customers through a daily TSA gauntlet complete with cavity searches will also end the project. In either case we lose and the thieves win, then they'll move on to pillage the next company or government program.
Posted 12 years ago # -
mikiem2
ModeratorVery good points Chris, but the obvious counter I think would be the competition, which allows installation whenever for the most part -- I got an e-mail saying I only had a week or so to register one of them, but everything else has been advertised unlimited. I think as you've said the GOTD crew needs a more prominent PR effort right now -- if the wrapper's intended to attract more & better offers, say so explicitly & often.
Now I have no idea how widespread the anger is over the new wrapper. I figure GOTD staff has metrics they can use to judge if traffic & downloads are getting better/worse.
From their perspective however they may be a bit perplexed... Before I got sick I spent most of my life doing tech &/or repair sort of stuff, from the time I was 7 or 8 years old & did my 1st custom paint job on my bicycle. I'm baffled -- I pretty much give up. But I don't work for GOTD -- my paycheck doesn't go away if the site does. I don't know their background or possible language barriers or marketing experience or anything really, but it **may** be a situation where they're at a loss trying to figure out why folks are upset, how much it matters [or doesn't], & what to do about it. And I bring it up in case those who can & do talk to them might bear that thought in mind if they wish.
Not intending to offend anyone, if/when the wrapper doesn't work but the trial download does, why not use the trial download? Seriously... I mean it takes longer to post about it than it does to do the trial download.
If the concern is so great that GOTD might have missed some sort of malware, with some people unwilling to suspend their AV software, why & how do they trust *their* AV software? If GOTD's AV stuff misses something, how can anyone be certain the brand they use will catch it? No AV software is perfect, so is it a matter of their software being better than whatever GOTD uses? If that's it, would it help if GOTD spelled out just what they use, &/or if GOTD started using some other brand? I'm not being facetious but really don't know, don't understand myself.
Some people have focused on Themida... are problems caused by compatibility with Themida code or are people simply repeating a mantra they've heard again & again: Themida Bad & everyone knows it. Has it reached the tipping point where it doesn't matter? Once an idea catches hold, achieves critical mass, no logic or proof or anything else is going to change things.
From a more tech standpoint, why isn't there a clear link on the download page to a support form in case of problems? Why isn't there a thread where everyone with problems lists system specs, AV apps running etc.? For an established app that's IMO unheard of, & the GOTD wrapper is an established app by a established brand. If the problem is confined to people running Acme Anti-Roadrunner software, then it should be relatively simple for GOTD to contact Wile E Coyote @ tech services & get something done. It should be simple for everyone running Acme software to contact Wile & get something done.
At any rate I'm perplexed. I don't know that there's anything else I can put down that might help, or provide an acceptable compromise -- what I already wrote has been in part grasping at straws. Yet without a solution, some sort of compromise, one or both sides loses. Not IMO a good thing. Maybe looking at it from another perspective will help -- you don't have to agree with it, but you do likely need to figure out the GOTD point of view before you can propose a compromise. And if you can come up with a compromise, some starting point for dialog, you'll almost always get better, more results than just shouting no.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I am not going out of my way to fight through their paranoia.
Definitely not paranoia.
Paranoia - noun.
1. A mental condition characterized by delusions of persecution,
2. Suspicion and mistrust of people or their actions without evidence or justification.When users start to write applications to automate the bypassing of the GOTD wrapper, and sites start to blog about the GOTD hack programs, it becomes very clear that lots of people are abusing the giveaways (even though many will deny it until their eyes roll back in their heads).
http://www.ghacks.net/2012/03/23/gaotd-setup-keeper-re-use-giveaway-of-the-day-setup-files/
http://www.raymond.cc/blog/gaotd-setup-keeper-keeps-giveawayoftheday-installer-file/
http://www.raymond.cc/blog/giveaway-forever-saves-giveawayoftheday-setup-installer-file/
numerous videos like - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pizehlb6eIw
Needless to say, these methods are now useless. The GOTD team are working at fixing any outstanding issues related to the new wrapper.
The techniques to obtain a "forever free" version of the software was widely known - and I'm sure some developers avoided participating with GOTD, knowing how it was being widely abused.
The previous system wasn't very sophisticated, and was probably designed to keep the majority of "honest users" from abusing the system. But with the appearance of step by step guides and even 3'rd party apps to automate the ripoff - the landscape has obviously changed.
Hopefully with increased developer confidence in the integrity of the giveaways - we will see even bigger and better programs appearing on GOTD.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I've a Windows 2000 PC I still use, and for the most part, works very well. However, this new wrapper is not Win 2000 compatible, and so each .exe file I unzip out of the .zip file is invalid.
I know Win 2000 is an old horse now, but for 90% of the games given away on GOTD site, they worked perfectly. This is no longer the case with the new wrapper.Posted 12 years ago # -
goodgotd
MemberThings have been... distracting, Wabbit.
and my statement holds for the main GOTD site, as well as the Game GOTD site. I will grant the evidence of abuse to the point of absurdity, but still... IMO still too risky for me to pass on a positive recommendation to others any farther.
Posted 12 years ago # -
At what point do you see the giveaways to be more risky than they were before?
While Themida has been used by some malware authors to hide their payloads from security software, the result is many antivirus products just block EVERYTHING that uses Themida as being suspicious (if I can't see what is inside, I'm not trusting anything).
BUT, the GOTD team only use Themida during the actual program install. Once the app/game is installed - Themida is no longer used or resident in any way. Once the app/game is installed your antivirus or security software is free to scan and check all installed files without being hindered by Themida in any way. In fact if configured correctly, most antivirus software will scan files automatically on access, so the first time (and subsequent times) you launch a game or app - they will be scanned in the background.
Further, the GOTD team go to great lengths to scan and check all apps prior to packaging them in the wrapper - and they are obtained from a reliable source (direct from the developer or licensed distributor). I have seen apps (in the past) that are put on hold because of virus/false positive errors - and until the issues are cleared up - and the antivirus companies update their signature files, the giveaways are put on hold. It is only once these files are known to be clean that they can get packaged up.
So if the "too risky" too concern is related to malware or viruses - I believe it is unfounded as GOTD are very careful to ensure that giveaways are checked with the latest available tools.
Once the (pre-checked) app/game is installed - then you can check and scan it until you find some peace of mind.
It is worth noting - that the situation about scanning the GOTD downloaded file was also NOT possible with the wrapper prior to the adoption of Themida. Antivirus apps were unable to scan the contents of the app setup file which was embedded inside the wrapper - and the first time the setup of the giveaway became visible was once it was lanched from the temp folder (which effectively was after the wrapper had completed its job).
But still some users google 'Themida' and find an article about antivirus complaining about a 'Themida' alert - and without an understanding of the reason behind the actual alert - they associate 'Themida' with 'risky'.
Anything used for the purpose of abuse by the powers of evil - is 'risky'. But I see this particular use of Themida - as a very necessary step to ensure confidence in GOTD (by developers). The areas where users have not been able to install giveaways (eg. "Monitoring App detected" error messages) are gradually being resolved.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Whiterabbit-uk
Games GuruThanks BuBBy, you explained the situation much better than I was able to above and elsewhere. I can see why the giveaway team have started using the Themida protection. Your other post explaining that the propensity of You Tube videos and even tools to extract the giveaway executable from the wrapped file (including pre registered executables) may have put off many potential developers from giving software away). I emailed you tube about the videos saying that they should be removed, but nothing was ever done about it. I didn't realize there were 3'rd party apps to automate the ripoff. It's hard to believe what users will do to get free programs.
No matter how many users leave the project, there will always be new ones to replace them. At least that is once the giveaway team have sorted out the problems some users have been facing with respect to being able to install the software and games and the hullabaloo surrounding the use of Themida has died down
Posted 12 years ago # -
While the GOTD team battle to protect the software, another group battle to crack it.
Microsoft have been doing this same battle for years, and a quick search on 'office 2010 activation crack' shows they're still losing.My point is the GOTD team try stronger and stronger anti-crack techniques annoying the legitimate users to the point they give up, while the 'hackers' simply remove the protection. I'm reminded of this graphic.
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kz06v1ZF5O1qzpad7o1_400.jpgPosted 12 years ago # -
My point is the GOTD team try stronger and stronger anti-crack techniques
Well this is the first time the GOTD team has tried a stronger technique.
annoying the legitimate users to the point they give up
Hopefully those users can be specific about error messages or symptoms that are preventing them from installing the giveaways. I'm sure there is a sizable proportion of these users who object only on a 'philosophical' basis that they don't like Themida because the 'freedoms' they enjoyed in bypassing the licensing agreements are no longer possible.
The remainder who can provide feedback on specific problems they are having will allow the GOTD team to troubleshoot any remaining compatibility issues with the new wrapper.
while the 'hackers' simply remove the protection.
That is a problem the GOTD team will just have to manage when it happens.
Deciding to remove all protection because at some stage in the future the protection MIGHT be ineffective, is simply validating the behavior you are trying to reduce.
I'm reminded of this graphic.
I'm not sure I see the similarities.
Using the old wrapper - you had to download, run (validate) - then install.
Now you have to download, run (validate - but slightly slower) - then install.Posted 12 years ago # -
mikiem2
ModeratorI'm sure there is a sizable proportion of these users who object only on a 'philosophical' basis
while the 'hackers' simply remove the protection.
That is a problem the GOTD team will just have to manage when it happens.
Deciding to remove all protection because at some stage in the future the protection MIGHT be ineffective, is simply validating the behavior you are trying to reduce.
Perhaps some [many?] are enjoying the philosophical aspects more than anything else, BuBBy? :)
I say that because the little that's relevant has been said & said, as you've posted: "So if the "too risky" too concern is related to malware or viruses - I believe it is unfounded as GOTD are very careful to ensure that giveaways are checked with the latest available tools."
The new wrapper is fact -- what is, is. If it's necessary to attract future giveaways, fault the companies &/or devs who want it. Same if anyone's opposed to DRM. Such is life. If you want change, protest to the source of what you want changed -- support alternative biz models to what *That Source* uses... that most famously worked for iTunes MP3 DRM. GOTD is NOT the source here, but stuck with requirements imposed by the software companies, same as every user.
I agree with you, BuBBy: "some developers avoided participating with GOTD, knowing how it was being widely abused.". If they were going to giveaway unlimited licenses, as with the competition, why bother with the added work the wrapper entailed -- there have been numerous references over the years to problems caused during that process, to where Ashampoo on GOTD doesn't [won't?] use it.
I don't think objections to the new wrapper have to do all that much with people wanting an unlimited license to GOTD offers. With very few exceptions, I haven't seen GOTD offers where a determined user couldn't find alternatives, & as you've written: "Using the old wrapper - you had to download, run (validate) - then install. Now you have to download, run (validate - but slightly slower) - then install."... while the setup.exe DRM may be better, everything else is the same.
I will hazard a comment I hope offends no one, though it may be unflattering to whatever fan boy types... Whether it was originally intended that way or not, AV false positives can be, often is great marketing. I'm too pragmatic for it to make a lot of sense to me -- If every time I went to the doc, s/he always diagnosed illnesses I didn't have, I'd be POed -- but there genuinely seem to be plenty who lean towards being a hypochondriac. :)
Posted 12 years ago #
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